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Quote# 118291

"One of the common claims is that Mary was probably only a little girl of 12-14 years old. The reason given for this is that it was "common custom" in those days to marry girls off that young. It is also suggested by some that Joseph must have been much older than she was because he appears to have died early. There is no mention of him after Jesus was 12 years old. This is an assumption and not necessarily based on the custom of the time.]

I don't think we can determine Joseph's age, but I think it is not likely that Mary was as young as some people represent her.

First of all, while I realize that Joseph and Mary were already espoused - but not officially married - I find it interesting that her parents don't even get an honorable mention here. We're not introduced to her as "Mary the daughter of _________". Added to that, Mary gets a lot more "press" than even Joseph does, especially in this passage. If Mary was just a little 12 to 14 year old girl betrothed to marry an older man, that seems a little bit odd. In such a case her parents would have still held a large place in her life because Joseph hadn't taken her yet, Matthew 1:18-20.

Some people might like to use this to show that a girl/woman belongs to her husband-to-be immediately upon betrothal/espousal, but that doesn't exactly make sense. When a young lady is promised in marriage, but not yet taken, and is still in her father's home, she must be in a situation of being answerable to both men for a time of transition. Assuming Mary was only 12-13 years old, she would surely have been living with parents or guardians still. One would expect that either Joseph or Mary's father would have been the main character being dealt with by God, and yet neither one is. That is a very interesting point and makes it hard for me to believe that she was that young. The fact that God deals directly with her and there is no mention of her father makes it seem likely that she was a good bit older than that, especially since in v. 39 she apparently travels by herself to see her cousin, Elisabeth.

Another reason I don't believe Mary was such a young girl is because in Mark chapter 5 we meet Jairus who came to Jesus pleading with Him to heal his daughter. In Mark 5:23 we read, And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live. Jesus went to the house and raised the girl from the dead, and in vs. 41-42 the scripture says, And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment. First, it is just my observation that a man who expected to marry his daughter off in a year or less just might not be calling her his "little daughter" at age 12. I realize that emotions could be blamed for his use of this expression, but somehow it just doesn't ring true. But, more than that, the word "Talitha" is thought to be a diminutive word meaning "little girl", as opposed to a young woman. We might infer from that that Jesus also did not consider her a young woman of marriageable age.

Which leads to another point which I think is even more important. Just because something is the "common custom" of a given era, it does not follow that all those who love God and follow His word will be doing that thing. Imagine if this earth went on another 2000 years and much of our present history was lost along the way. Some "scholar" who was supposedly "in the know" might portray us all as having tattoos because "it was the common custom" of that day. And, yet, would that be true? No! Certainly not. Some of us don't have tattoos for Biblical reasons, in fact. Mary and Joseph both were obviously people who loved the Lord and followed His commandments. It is more likely that Mary was raised by parents who loved God than otherwise. They would not follow the customs of the day just because that is what everyone else was doing - even if the "good, godly" folks at the synagogue thought it was fine. There were a lot of things the "good, godly" people of their day were doing that Jesus later rebuked!

Furthermore, we know that the early Christians in the Roman Empire did not typically practice early marriage for their young girls. In his book, The Book that Made Your World, Vishal Mangalwadi writes (p. 284), "Christians also expressed their respect for women by raising the age of marriage. Roman law established twelve as the minimum age at which girls could marry. But the law was nothing more than a recommendation...and was routinely ignored. The best available studies show that in the Roman Empire the pagans' daughters were three time more likely than Christians to marry before they were thirteen. By age eleven, 10 percent were wed. Nearly half (44 percent) of the pagan girls were married off by the time they were fourteen, compared to 20 percent of the Christians. In contrast, nearly half (48 percent) of the Christian females did not marry before they were eighteen."

My point is that the people Mary was associated with - Zacharias, Elisabeth and Joseph - were all godly people who loved the Lord. Mary herself was obviously a godly woman. It is possible that Joseph and Mary had been betrothed at an early age, but he had not taken her yet, and based on some of the other things I've already mentioned, it seems more than likely that she was older than the legendary 12-13 years at the time this account opens.

My last reason for not believing that Mary was a little 12-13 year old girl is that it is not physically safe for a girl that young to have children. If no one else was watching out for Mary's safety you can count on the fact that God was! My loving, kind heavenly Father would not impregnate a girl that young and physically immature. He just wouldn't do it. He is not that kind of God. That kind of behavior is found in gods in other religions, but not in God Almighty, the Faithful and True. Of Him it is said, He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. Isaiah 40:11 If there is no other reason to know that Mary was not that young it is this. The God we know and trust simply wouldn't do that to one of His daughters. (Yes, men might do this; men who professed to fear God might do this; but remember that in this case God was the one calling the shots, fulfilling the prophecy, and ordering every event. He was fully in charge in a way we don't always see when He's dealing with sinful men.)....

Please stop calling mary a little girl. She was not a little girl. STOP ACCUSING GOD!

#1933741, FSTDT Comments 46 Comments [4/18/2016 4:43:21 PM]
Fundie Index: 4

Quote# 127745

Evidence? Who needs evidence to believe in evolution!

Darwin, nit wit, absolutely believed the fossils were necessary for his theory to be valid and bemoaned the lack of them to back his theory.

Evolutionists can't even agree WHY the missing links are missing by the millions and why the first of all animal phylum appear fully-formed the first time they appear in the Cambrian. That has how half-baked, cult-like the theory is.

Evolution is intellectually indefensible. It takes a spiritual blindness to accept it.

If God created species in their present form, it is proof there is a God one is accountable. Avoiding that reality is the sole reason to hang onto the theory.

kirkz2006@yahoo.com, Realabortiondebate 17 Comments [6/1/2017 9:55:16 PM]
Fundie Index: 7

Quote# 134188

Right-wing radio host, commentator, conspiracy theorist and Donald Trump–obsessed sycophant Wayne Allyn Root delivered a furious rant in defense of Roy Moore on his radio program last week after reports surfaced that Moore had pursued sexual relationships with teenage girls when he was in his 30s, demanding to know why the press never investigated reports that both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had gay relationships.

“They’re scumbags,” Root said of Moore’s critics, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, whom Root insisted is “evil” and “looks like he died 20 years ago.”

Root said that based on the photos he has seen of the women who have accused Moore of pursuing them when they were teenagers, “they were beautiful young girls and they could have passed for 20” and so even if Moore did “hit on a couple of them,” it is no big deal because “every time a see a video or picture of [Joe Biden], he’s got his hand inappropriately on a woman’s ass.”

“Where is The Washington Post to dig into Hillary Clinton’s background?” Root asked. “Where are the women Hillary’s dated all these years? How come they don’t come forward? Where are they? Everybody knows about them.”

After Root suggested that Clinton was responsible for the deaths of Vince Foster and Seth Rich, he also demanded to know why the press never covered the rumors regarding Obama.

“I’ve heard the rumors about Bathhouse Barry,” he said. “Everyone has. Bathhouse Barry, well known in Chicago. By the way, not a rumor from a stranger I don’t know, rumors from my friends in Chicago, who are people in the know who tell me Barack Obama has a sordid past.”

Wayne Allyn Root, Right Wing Watch 17 Comments [11/14/2017 9:12:34 AM]
Fundie Index: 4
Submitted By: kuyohashi

Quote# 134215

I guess you all know that the only remaining hope of ever breaking the cycle of ignorance, witch doctor level voodoo pseudoscience and despair lies with God Emperor Trump and his America don’t you? No politician, institution or journal in Europe, Australasia or Canada is ever going to break ranks on this. I cannot see any possibility of a non-career political maverick like Trump gaining power anywhere else. Even if a right wing party get voted in somewhere – like Austria for example – they will just keep quiet on this issue so their detractors cannot use the hysterical and risible yet universally accepted “science denier” slur.

Even now with all the evidence piling up on the side of the sceptics and not a whiff of significant warming happening or accelerating sea level rise or more extreme weather or ocean pH and on and on and the models completely discredited the UK government has placed a windmill-loving, true-believing eco-loon in the position of Environment Minister. Right at the time we need to be accelerating away from the doomed EU and going full-on fracking and nuclear the ‘government’ appoints a moonbat to cover all the lands in useless windmills and solar panels to drive up electricity prices and drive industry away.

Go Trump!

cephus0, Watt's Up With That 11 Comments [11/14/2017 4:55:34 PM]
Fundie Index: 8
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134217

Your Doctors are rarely White -- she ran into two or more of them? A Pakistani Doctor wanted to do emergency surgery on my 85 year old neighbour around Christmas; the DP said that George would be dead in 24 hours ; George looked fine. He might have died over the Christmas holidays , ruining the family's holidays, but the Pakistani would have made $300.00 , had some surgical practise and gotten brownie points with Allah for killing an infidel. George lived 3 more months without any surgery. Attempted murder is worse than name calling and gratuitous murder more hurtful.

Spud, Eurocanadian  10 Comments [11/15/2017 2:49:46 AM]
Fundie Index: 6

Quote# 134140

astronaut confirms fallen angels are here on earth

Of course he calls them extraterrestrials because he obviously isn't as big a believer in God as he leads us to believe, (NASA astronauts are all luciferian freemasons) because if he was he would know that we never see any UFO leaving our earth and venturing out in space, satan and his angels are trapped here just like we are and nothing gets past the firmament.


back2thebible, Carm 2 Comments [11/13/2017 4:32:08 AM]
Fundie Index: 7
Submitted By: Christopher

Fucking Gravity Award

How does it work?

Quote# 134211

If the Earth is rotating at thousand miles per hour why do planes not fly backwards?

FLAT EARTH - No Trolls or Drama, Facebook 16 Comments [11/14/2017 2:15:41 PM]
Fundie Index: 11
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134208

Earth is once again going through a massive transition,
except this time it is world-wide - into the Violet-Age of Aquarius.

People are already starting to turn away from the church. There will be more
inclusiveness that will incorporate the best elements of most faiths. By 2050,
scientists will prove after death does exist so atheists will have no where to hide.

Diamond Heart, Yahoo! Answers 12 Comments [11/14/2017 2:15:28 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: zipperback

Quote# 134152

Zoriah Mysdes
Your question is flawed. No such verse exists.

Traditional engagements in Jewish culture occurred when the female was between 15 and 17; while the actual marriage took place between 16 and 18. The male was generally 2 - 5 years older than the female, and families either side were generally in full agreement for the wedding to take place.

Obviously there were exceptions to this, just as there are in our own time; but the story of Mary and Joseph did not divert from traditional protocol. Both of their families were very religious, and Mary could have been stoned when she came back from her cousin’s house pregnant, due to the strict order of the Israelites.

Mikael Farid Guangxi

Sep 9

liar! Talmud recorded in halacha law a girl can be married when she was only 12!

Mikael Farid Guangxi, Quora 7 Comments [11/13/2017 4:48:46 AM]
Fundie Index: 6

Quote# 134206

Hundreds of Americans visit the DPRK per year, and less than 1% of these are detained. Don't listen to the imperialist media lies.

Anthony Macias, Facebook 4 Comments [11/15/2017 2:45:06 AM]
Fundie Index: 6
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134155


Jackie O: What’s your stance on gay marriage?

Pauline Hanson: What a person does behind their own closed doors is their own business, but the fact is I don’t agree with gay marriages, or gay’s adopting children, or invitro fertilisation, and I have a lot of gay friends that agree with me, and that that’s my view on it.

Jackie O: That is a pretty old fashioned view isn’t it, the younger generation are a little more for it.

Kyle: The young ones they don’t care, they just say let’s just everyone do everyone, let everyone come in, this country was built on immigrants, let’s just open up the doors and let’s just dance.

Pauline Hanson: It’s wonderful that people have opinions and views on these things, but the hard fact is at the end of the day someone’s got to pay the price for all this, people have to understand what happened in the past to discover this land, the diggers that fought for us

Kyle: Didn’t they fight for us to be free… so that we can all have gay sex!

Pauline Hanson: It’s not for me Kyle.

Kyle: It’s not for me either, but nearly every single but there’s a lot of friends I have… the main question that I’ve noticed is, it’s treating people like second class citizens, if they want to get married let them get married.

I’ll put it to you this way, once the marriage is recognised by law, then they have the rights to adopt children,

Jackie O: But they should be able to have children Pauline.

Pauline Hanson: But then you look at the child, have they been asked? You have a man, and then you have a women that’s what it’s all about. You think of the children as well.

Jackie O: Your old fashioned views… your generation won’t be around in 20-30 years time…

Pauline Hanson: And I’ll be quite happy about that too because I don’t like the way the world is going.

Jackie O: The new generation they’re a lot more open to it, I don’t think they’re as judgemental, if you’re in a gay relationship you absolutely should be able to have children.

Kyle: Pauline have you ever been in a lesbian relationship?

Pauline Hanson: Kyle! (laughs) I can’t even believe you’re asking me that question.

Pauline Hanson, Southern Cross Austereo 14 Comments [11/13/2017 8:01:48 AM]
Fundie Index: 6
Submitted By: Chris

Quote# 134200

(In a discussion about a Soviet propaganda poster decrying colonialism.)

["Ironic considering the history the the USSR."]

The USSR colonized who again? Oh right, no one.

["So i guess the Baltic conquest never happened?
Or the conquest of Eastern Poland, Ukraine, Bessarabia, Armenia, Caucasia, Ingria and the subsequant Russification of each of those territories?"]

Freeing countries from the Nazis isn't colonization. I'm unaware of a "colony" where all the people get free housing, food, clothing, a guaranteed job from their alleged "colonizers", and where all industry is nationalized and controlled by the people. But somehow when all the industry was privatized with US assistance in the 1990s, that's "freedom". And that article cites Robert Conquest, a total fraud and propagandist who counts dead Nazis as "victims of Communism", and cites Nazi lies and Nazi propaganda as evidence of "communist terror".

zombiesingularity, r/PropagandaPosters 5 Comments [11/14/2017 11:56:00 AM]
Fundie Index: 9
Submitted By: The Reptilian Jew

Quote# 134175

The gender-confused need to make sure they change in rooms that reflects their birth gender. It's intrusive for a man to use women's dressing rooms regardless of how he identifies. We so need Jesus to return in power and glory to set things right.

Sharon Billington, Facebook 11 Comments [11/13/2017 4:57:46 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134176

Organizations like the ACLU and atheists have worked so hard to make sure everything has to be politically correct, but that isn't an issue to be opposed, a vocal in your opposition, to Christians. This, to the point that we are almost scared to state our Christian views.

The Bible says that Christians will be persecuted, and we are. But we need to be bold in defending our position. After all, The Lord is our leader and no one, not even Satan, can do anything to us with The Lord allowing it.

Dave Bilby Sr, Facebook 21 Comments [11/13/2017 4:57:52 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134197

Trans people are just men who wan’t to be women…….. its disgusting.

comradejordan, Tumblr 15 Comments [11/14/2017 11:50:57 AM]
Fundie Index: 8
Submitted By: Daspletosaurus

Quote# 134194

Today elementary school kids are in the school of Stigeråsen in the Norwegian city of Skien are preparing the play for Christmas, in which two verses of the Quran were integrated. Most of the Christmas plat has traditional Christian content, but the school has included the Quranic verses to show that Jesus appears in the Quran. About 40 percent of the students in the Stigeråsen school has an immigration background. With these Quranic verses the school wants to create respect between different religions (it's Islam).

Infamously Jesus is like Muhammad in Islam only a prophet and not God's son. This way the pedophile mass murderer, street thief and torture practitioner Muhammad can be used in a Christian context to relativate the Christian roots of our culture and to finally remove them.

Original German:
Zurzeit üben Grundschüler der Stigeråsen Schule im norwegischen Städtchen Skien das Weihnachtsspiel, in dem zwei Verse aus dem Koran integriert wurden. Das meiste des Weihnachtsspiels hat traditionellen christlichen Inhalt, aber die Schule hat die Koranverse inkludiert, um zu zeigen, dass Jesus auch im Koran vorkommt. Etwa 40 Prozent der Schüler der Stigeråsen-Schule haben einen Migrationshintergrund. Mit den Koranversen möchte die Schule Respekt und Verständnis zwischen verschiedenen Religionen (dem Islam) schaffen.

Bekanntlich wird Jesus ebenso wie Mohammed im Islam nur als Prophet nicht aber als Gottes Sohn anerkannt. So wird der pädophile Massenmörder, Straßenräuber und Folterer Mohammed im christlichen Kontext eingesetzt, um die christlichen Wurzeln unserer Kultur zu relativieren und letztlich zu entfernen.

ALSTER, PI News 6 Comments [11/14/2017 11:47:15 AM]
Fundie Index: 4

Quote# 20660

It is good and pleases God when we as a nation uphold His values. There is good and Godly discrimination, and God is all for it! This is a wonderful opportunity to discriminate FOR GOD and FOR HIS MARRIAGE IDEA.

I encourage all my fellow believers in Christ to join hundreds of millions of faithful worldwide in discrimination against false marriage. It pleases God to support Godly marriage only. That is the ONLY definition of marriage.


LovesTruth, Christian Forums 43 Comments [2/14/2007 12:00:00 AM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Seth

Quote# 134202

islamophobia …
non-islams are continually accused of being “it” (islamophobic) !!!
a non-islam can only ever be islam aware … more aware … or less aware … of islam !!!
(thankfully -more aware of islam- is the current trend
… all you have to do is be awake !)
… islams are so demonstrative of their criminality

an islam is the one who experiences islamophobia … a genuine fear of islam !
• fear of being called out for not being the correct type of islam … exterminated !
• fear of being not islam enough … exterminated !
• fear of leaving islam … exterminated !
• fear by islams of islam is a birth defect … none are aware of [or can admit to] their own fear !

islamophile …
• one who is guilty of treason against their own non-islam civilised nation !
• one who consorts aids and abets with invading islams … (a criminal behaviour) !

How do you believe an islam when they genuinely claim apostasy !

john Daniel, Bare Naked Islam 7 Comments [11/15/2017 2:44:34 AM]
Fundie Index: 7
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134174

Boycott! That's all. God made you. What's between your legs is what determines that; not the mood of yourself that day or life style. Do it; just don't force it on us!! We don't have to play along with your sick game.

Julio C Vasquez, Facebook 13 Comments [11/13/2017 4:57:41 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134158

Jesus Christ you are all infected retarded putrid pathetic idiots?Do you prefer to have a real life full of happiness,wonders and others or to change the diapers full shit of a low functioning autistic everyday forever 24/24?I had an autistic girlfriend and i broke up in just 2 years.Even the normal-esque autistics are hard to understand.I don't want the high functioning autistics to die but i hate the low functioning ones.Even autistics hate other autistics.The low functioning persons should not exist at all.They cannot comprehend mundane things despite you told them 1.000.0000 times.They are sensitive to anything,and i mean anything:sounds,colours,textures,temperature and food.If a parent doesn't got any vacantions or break a day from the things he do everyday,he will became crazy after a long time.Some parents needed years of therapy because of depression because that low functioning sack full of shit appeared into the picture.They destroy families,isolate them and they aren't able to fend for themselves.What if the parents cannot make enought money for therapy?Most of times you will spend the last dime for the treatment for autistics.Low income,unprepared of whatever,most autistics are a burden.Hurrr durr hurr fart,it's a human ,how you can be that evil,says someone.Grow up and go to the bathroom ,wash your face and then revisit the subject later.I dare you all to walk 50 km throught the parent's shoes.

JewelCichlid99, Reddit - r/SubredditDrama 4 Comments [11/14/2017 5:39:33 AM]
Fundie Index: 5

Quote# 134187

What does the description of an “Independent Fundamental Baptist” Church mean?

Firstly, I agree with Dr. John R. Rice (1895-1980) that there's no such thing as “The Baptist Church.” The Body of Christ is composed of believers from Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist and numerous other Christian denominations. In fact, most Christian believers AREN'T part of any denomination.

Billy Sunday was a mighty Presbyterian minister in his time. J. Vernon McGee also was a faithful man of God within the Presbyterian denomination and a great Bible scholar during his lifetime. Thank God for these great men.

Also, within the Methodist denomination are many faithful Christians today who love the Lord and are serving Christ.



This simply means that the church stands alone, free of any governing denomination, convention or council. A prime example of the dangers of belonging to a convention is seen in the apostate Southern Baptist Convention. Thousands of Southern Baptist Churches didn't baptize a single convert last year. Many such churches have adopted a false gospel of Lordship Salvation. After an 8-year ban against Walt Disney's hideous “Gay Day,” leaders at the Southern Baptist Convention gave in to pressure from member churches to lift the ban, so their members could attend Disney World. This is where Christianity is at in America today, and it's a sad commentary.

The church which Jesus Christ founded in His earthly life and ministry is commonly referred to as the “New Testament Church.” The Book of Acts gives us an example to follow concerning how to run the church today. They were a soulwinning church, doing public visitation (Acts 20:20). There was no convention to pay dues to, or answer to, or to rely upon for spiritual guidance while making crucial decisions. I'd be embarrassed if I were a pastor who needed approval from a convention on the workings of my ministry. Phooey on governing bodies! Every church ought to be independent, answering to God alone, hopefully pastored by a genuine man of God who walks with God.



This simply means that the church abides by the Fundamental teachings of Christianity, i.e., the Doctrine of Christ . . . “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son” (2nd John 1:9). This includes the Deity of Christ, the Godhead (Trinity), the Virgin Birth, the Physical Blood Sacrifice of Jesus, His Sinless life, Christ's Death upon the cross, His Burial and Bodily Resurrection, Salvation by grace through faith Without Works, a Hell that burns with fire, a Literal Heaven, the Eternal Punishment of the Damned and other fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith.

“Fundamental” means avoided new and strange doctrines that are foreign to the Historical Christian faith. Many authors today are claiming new insights into the Scriptures, the alleged discovery of missing books of the Bible, and other bogus claims against the Christian faith. A prime example is the blasphemous DaVinci Code which portrays Jesus Christ as a failure who had an adulterous relationship with Mary Magdalene. Other frauds are the Gospel of Judas and the Book of Enoch. Benny Hinn teaches strange doctrines. One such teaching of Hinn's is that each member of the Godhead is subdivided into three more persons, totaling NINE. These are weird and unscriptural doctrines.

By attending an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, you're not likely to hear strange new doctrines; but rather, the fundamental teachings of the Word of God.

As mentioned earlier, there is NO such thing as “The Baptist Church”; however, I am personally convinced that Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches—who use only the King James Bible—and go door-to-door soulwinning regularly—and the pastor preaches against sin—and the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word are uplifted—come closest to the New Testament Church as taught in the Scriptures.

David J. Stewart, Jesus Is Savior 9 Comments [11/14/2017 9:12:08 AM]
Fundie Index: 3

Quote# 134161

Yeah, good ol’ England has always had a bit of homosexuality as part of their culture, in those boys’ schools and such. Might be why they favor the Muzzlimes so much, since they like that sort of thing, too.

But gee whiz-—you’re gonna toss away a thousand or more years of having your own nation by importing and indulging zillions of Muzzlimes, even with them raping your daughters, and by fairyfying what remains of your men? What happened to England, ruler of empires? It’s going down the tubes so fast, aided and abetted by its own stupid leaders and churchmen.

EinNYC, Free Republic 8 Comments [11/14/2017 5:40:07 AM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Katie

Quote# 134136


Australia is currently voting in a postal survey on whether to legalise gay marriage. A clear majority of Australians support gay marriage but I predict that the “No” side will win the vote. When this occurs, the radical left will have no one to blame but themselves. There is a strong feeling of a Trump or Brexit type upset in the air, but the main reason that the “No” campaign will win is because the “Yes” side’s campaign has alienated the sensible center.

Australia is one of the few countries in the world that has compulsory voting in elections but this postal survey is not compulsory and I would be surprised if turnout is much over 50%. Opinion polls over recent years have consistently shown that around two thirds of Australians support gay marriage, but the expected low turnout makes the result of the postal survey hard to predict. Just as the “silent” Trump voters skewed the exit polls in the 2016 US Presidential election, there is probably also around 5% of Australians who are telling pollsters that they support gay marriage but who will in fact vote no.

The “Yes” and “No” campaigns

The “Yes” campaign is led by around half of the ruling centre-right Liberal/National government, including Australia’s Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, plus the opposition centre-left Labor Party and the far-left Greens Party. Almost all prominent Australians are supporting the “Yes” campaign.

The “No” campaign is led by religious organisations and a few conservative politicians. The fact that most Australian Muslims will undoubtedly vote no is an ironic turn for the leftists who have campaigned so hard to allow them into the country. The overwhelming support for the “Yes” side amongst prominent Australians from politics to media to entertainment to sport is reminiscent of opposition to Trump in the US and to Brexit in the UK.

The “Yes” side is not really making much of an argument, they just keep saying “love is love”. Presumably they do not think that incest, paedophilia or polygamy are ok because “love is love”, but they haven’t elaborated.

The “No” side is not making much of an argument about gay marriage either. Instead, it is arguing that gay marriage is another step towards political correctness and denial of free speech and religious freedom. Australia’s former conservative Prime Minister Tony Abbott is urging a “no” vote to “stop political correctness in its tracks”.

The left’s counterproductive tactics

The left is making two key strategic errors in its campaign. Firstly, it is arguing that there should not be a public debate or public vote on this issue. Secondly, it is bullying, persecuting and harassing anyone brave enough to declare that they will vote “no”.

The left has long argued against a public vote on same sex marriage saying that it will hurt gay people’s mental health and that straight people should not have the right to decide if gay people have “human rights”. The left does not appear to understand that people don’t like being told what they are and are not allowed to discuss, debate, say or think.

Some of the more radical leftist individuals and groups have also harassed, bullied and persecuted people who oppose gay marriage. On September 22, a “Yes” campaigner head butted Tony Abbott. A former champion boxer, Abbott assured the media he was “entirely unscathed” but said that he worries about “the brave new world of same-sex marriage if this is how some of the people who are most enthusiastically supporting it are behaving”.

In Canberra, an 18-year-old woman named Madeline was fired from her job at a children’s party business for advocating a “no” vote on her private Facebook wall. Capital Kids Parties owner Madlin Sims said she fired Madeline because “advertising your desire to vote no for SSM [same-sex marriage] is, in my eyes, hate speech”.

In Brisbane, the National Union of Students organised a rally outside a church to harass the attendees at a “vote no” meeting. The rally turned violent and one woman was arrested.

When “no” campaigners hired Skywriting Australia to write “vote no” in the sky above Sydney the business was abused on social media and the business owner received a torrent of harassing text messages including the following:

…you really are a shit human. You’re definitely the biggest piece of shit in Australia today. Probably tomorrow too. Hope you’re proud of yourself. Don’t be surprised by the hate coming for you. Titt for tatt, it’s only fair, right? You stupid, ignorant, remorseless, pathetic, old, LOSER.

The organisers of the skywriting later reported that GoFundMe “has decided to freeze our funds, until we give our names and locations. This is on the back of a massive amount of hateful messages we have received by people who want to silence our message and personally attack us.”

Of course, there are people on the “No” side who have behaved inappropriately too. The difference is that within the “Yes” camp the arguments that there should be no debate, or that those who oppose gay marriage should not be allowed to state their views, is mainstream.

Unlike the United States, Australia does not have constitutionally protected free speech. The Australian Parliament has passed laws imposing fines of up to $12,600 for anyone “vilifying” or “intimidating” another person during the gay marriage debate. I expect these laws will be enforced selectively against “no” campaigners for “homophobic” comments.

Lessons for the right

We shouldn’t underestimate the radical left, but we shouldn’t overestimate them either. Let them be themselves and they will alienate ten people for every one they convert. We on the right must not get down into the gutter to fight with these radical leftists or we will come out at least as dirty as they are. Let’s maintain the moral high ground and promote civilised debate, free speech, and non-violence.

Ned Kelly, Return of Kings 11 Comments [11/13/2017 4:28:32 AM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Chris

Quote# 134186

Child marriages among the Roma people in Europe are still prevalent. Roma is an unprivileged minority group in Romania, Spain, Italy, France etc. and are orthodox Christians.

Recently in Spain a 10-year-old daughter of a woman in her 30s gave birth to a baby. The father is 13. Shocking!

The West is so cleverly silent about containing what it condemns for others that you hardly know it exisits within their community until some sudden news story comes up in that regard.

Moreover, in the West they consider it okay if both are minors. But they will object if a 16 year old gets married to a 19 year old because the 16 year old is officially a minor whereas the 19 year old isn't. Now this is pure madness! Similarly if a 14 year old girl gets married to a 15 year old boy, they accept that. But if that 14 year old gets married to a 28 year old man, the guy becomes a "pedofile." Again, this is highly stupid. A 14 year old girl can be much better looked after and supported by a 28 year old than by a 15 year old. Needless to say, I don't at all support marriage of underage girls. But what I mean to say is that if a minor girl ends up getting married, it only makes the mess bigger if the boy she marries is also a minor.

Now read the messy story below. Very sad state of affairs.

Mom happy that her 10-year-old gave birth

MADRID - A Roma woman whose 10-year-old daughter just gave birth in Spain says she's delighted to have a new granddaughter and doesn't understand why the birth has shocked anyone — let alone become an international sensation.

Spanish authorities have released few details about the case to protect the girl's privacy.

But in comments published Wednesday, her Romanian mother told reporters the baby's father is a 13-year-old boy who is still in Romania and is no longer going out with her daughter.

The 10-year-old girl and her baby daughter plan to stay in Spain because the young couple separated, said the girl's mother. She identified herself only as Olimpia and appeared to be in her 30s but did not give her age.

She also said she didn't understand the attention the case was generating because she and her daughter are Roma and their custom is to allow girls to marry young even though that's against the law in Romania.

"That's the way we get married," the girl's mother told reporters Tuesday outside the modest apartment building in the southern town of Lebrija where the family lives.

Meanwhile, the story was going viral on the Internet and causing an uproar in Spain.

"Mother at 10 years old" blared a headline in Barcelona's La Vanguardia newspaper, which dedicated two pages to the story.

In contrast, news about the 10-year-old mother barely registered in Romania, with stories buried inside newspapers focusing on the controversy the birth had caused among Spaniards.

The girl moved to Spain about three weeks ago, her mother said, and her baby was born in a public hospital last week in the nearby city of Jerez de la Frontera. There were no complications during the birth, and the 10-year-old and her baby are doing fine, her mother said.

"She's doing well and is very happy with her daughter," the woman said.

The 10-year-old and her baby are living with the new grandmother while Spanish social welfare authorities determine whether the family will be able to provide for the baby.

Under Spanish law, having consensual sex with someone under age 13 is classified as child abuse. But a Justice Ministry official said this particular case is complicated, because the alleged father is not in Spain and is also a minor. It is not clear whether he could be charged, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of ministry policy.

Romanian law allows girls to get married at age 16 with parental consent, or at 18 without it.

But arranged "marriages" between teenagers are relatively common among Roma, who make up about 1.5 million of Romania's 22 million people. Families "marry off" daughters when they reach puberty, with the "husband" usually being a couple of years older. The marriages are not recognized by the state.

Roma girls are often not encouraged to pursue a full education, and Romanian authorities do not widely enforce education laws that require children to attend school until age 16.

In 2003, there was an international outcry after the European Union envoy to Romania, Baroness Emma Nicholson, demanded that a 12-year-old Roma girl and her 15-year-old common-law husband separate and cease all intimate relations until they were legally able to be married. The couple did separate for an unknown amount of time.

Yahoo! News

Ruhi_Rose, muslimvilla.smfforfree 6 Comments [11/14/2017 5:51:41 AM]
Fundie Index: 7

Quote# 134203

Actually, it’s probably worse than you know; because not only does the useless halfwit show he has no knowledge of history in making four enemy combatants multi-millionaires, (which labels him a traitor) but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the loony, Canada-hating liberals re-elected him.

Certainly, when we vote again, the liberals will most conveniently have forgotten the $40 million given to islam.

Peter35, Bare Naked Islam 2 Comments [11/14/2017 12:46:27 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Katie
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