Labels like "victim" imply that the person had no control over the situation. Rape victims, child abuse victims...that is the correct context that the word "victim" should be used in. In this day and age, it's crazy to call women that allow men to beat them "victims". Spineless and a bad judge of character, yes. But don't lump those women in with true victims.
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Spineless and bad judge of charecter but not a victim?
Lest Ye forget, the Hellish Bible says that thou art shit in the eyes of god if thou dost not obey the whims of the husband. So keep your mouth shut, bitch! [/sarcasm]
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ryan , it's not mainly about violence, usually the husband threats her or her family/friends/kids if she tells the police or leaves him. Fear and violence is a dangerous combination.
Would you tell the police if someone threatened to kill your parents if you did?
Also, many wives deny what happens.
"No... He didn't mean to do it, he's a nice guy!" is a classic.
And usually abusers are nice guys, but jealous and afraid that someone they love will leave them. So one thing leads to another... You cannot find an abuser until it's too late.
And to Cathy, I say the same.
Well, I wouldn't call myself an expert on the subject, but I certainly do have a fair amount of both real-world and educational experience on the subject. And I can attest that Cathy is full of shit.
Domestic violence victims are the subjects of their abusers' control. He isn't a perfect husband for six months then all of a sudden Jekyll and Hydes into a batterer; he spends an entire relationship convincing her that she doesn't deserve better, that his behavior is normal, essentially breaking down her spirit and making her dependent on him.
Domestic abusers are truly awful people, and it's insulting, insensitive, and simply factually wrong to state that women can or should "just leave."
So, "Blame Some of the Victims" award?
A few people put it nicely before, but wives in this situation are either to afraid to leave or don't have enough confidence to live on their own, because of how the husband has treated her.
In the past, I never really cared for these kind of comments, mainly because I've never had any first-hand experience in the matter.
A couple weeks ago, a girl that I love very much was raped by someone I used to call my friend. After all that I've been through regarding that experience in the time since has opened up a deep hatred for the people who say these kind of things.
After you see the kind of men... no, not men. Worms. After you see the kind of worms that commit these acts and the ways and reasons they do it for... You will realize it is never the girl's fault. She didn't have it coming. A cold, cruel, heartless shell of a human being commited the atrocity upon an innocent girl and scarred her for life.
So Cathy. Go fuck yourself, okay? You have no idea about any of the shit you're spewing and I recommend you shut your ass-for-a-mouth before you piss someone off a lot closer to you and a lot more volatile than me.
A few people put it nicely before, but wives in this situation are either to afraid to leave or don't have enough confidence to live on their own, because of how the husband has treated her.
The thing that angered me the most was that this comment came out after Cathy and a bunch of other people were waxing philosophic about how women should all just quit their jobs to have babies. I wrote about my experience with that (my dad up and left my mom one day after 13 years of her staying at home with me and my brother - it financially devastated her and a 13 year gap in her resume made it pretty freaking hard for her to find a job), and she basically said my mom was a dumb bitch who deserved it for marrying "some scumbag" (my father is not "some scumbag" and certainly wasn't when she married him - he had a traumatic brain injury that, as often happens, left him with very little ability to empathize with others).
Abusers isolate their victims and make them dependent upon them. Giving advice to women to become completely financially dependent on men makes it all that much harder to leave if the dude starts beating you, because he's likely driven away most of your friends, controls all the money, and can hire a lawyer to come after your kids. Fear is a huge part of it, but shit life advice like "oh just trust him with everything! What could go wrong?" is a big obstacle too.
Saying that someone is not a 'victim' is not the same as saying their abuser is not guilty.
In a technical sense, they are always victims, and nothing justifies what the "men" do.
But at some point, say, after a woman bails her husband out of jail for the eighth time for beating her, you just have to recognize that being with this man is a choice she's made. She's not stupid, and knows exactly what will happen.
It's like a drug addict, if they want help they can get it, but if they don't who's fault is it?
I'd almost agree with her basic idea, except that while the woman in question may well be a poor judge of character and too frightened to leave the situation (be it for physical, psychological, or economical reasons), she is still a victim, and she is being victimized by her husband. There is always more to the situation than "cut and run." Though, of course, there's always a better solution than "stay the course," too.
Women who ALLOW men to beat them?, are you crazy?, why do you asume that they want to be beaten?, do they also want to be stolen, lied, raped, etc.....?. I think this woman is a troll.
well, to add my own experience to the pot, my sister is in an abusive relationship. He started out the sweetest guy around, never even argued with her. Then the insults started - slow at first, then as he got more comfortable in his position, they got worse. Everything got worse. He's a psycho arsehole. She's not spineless, and if anyone could see that change in character coming, they're psychic.
It's very difficult for most women to leave a situation such as Cathy describes, but at some point a woman's life may depend on it. Certainly any remaining sense of self-esteem does. Remaining after the first few incidents may be motivated by love or fear. If there are subsequent replays then Cathy's Law may, indeed, be in effect. (Her choice of the verb "lump" seems peculiar.)
It's so sad and angering how people who say things like this not only totally lack empathy, but lack the imagination to understand situations that don't fit into their retarded preconceptions.
TastyHamSandwich: that's awful. I'm very sorry for your friend and I hope she recovers from this as well as she can. And I hope the rapist will be punished.
Reminds me a bit of school. The kids who were picked on by the bullies often tried to play nice and make friends with the little shits (on the advice of clueless adults, no doubt), fawning over them and trying to pretend everything was cool. But the bullies still laughed at them, and when they got sick of the suckups, returned to kicking sand in their faces.
It seems to be fashionable for conservative women to side with the men who hate them. They'll learn... it won't be fun, but they'll learn.
Those of you who think that women should leave, please take note: An abuse victim returns to her abuser 7 times on average before finally cutting the cord.
In addition, the most dangerous time for her is when she's preparing to leave. Old Viking, instead of thinking that her life depends on her leaving, remember that it often depends on her staying.
Mister Spak, you could be right. I'm assuming that working in a women's shelter would teach Cathy empathy, but she may be too fundie to empathize with anyone. I agree that the last thing an abused woman needs is a raging asshat lecturing her to her face.
This is obviously a very complex and deeply personal issue, and I've been impressed by the level of comments I've read here on FStDT.
You have never been in an abusive relationship, have you Cathy? In fact, I seriously doubt you have ever spoken with an abused spouse, never mind had the ability to empathize with her/him.
*whispers to FSTDT* Are there really people this sheltered out there?
So what if they're brainwashed fundies like you, taught that men are superior in everything they do and that women can do nothing right? You don't think they might be victims, too, of their husbands and their families?
While the woman in question may indeed have been naive, and may indeed be timid and weak this in no way suggests that they are not victims. They are innocents that have been preyed upon by those stronger physically, mentally, and socially then they are, if there is a better definition of "victim" I would like to hear it.
In short, Cathy, you are a cunt.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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