(On how anesthetics during childbirth is a sin)
[I fail to see how it would be defying God any more than not letting your husband rule over you (I hope you wouldn't do that!) Anyways, you get Novocaine when you get dental work done don't you? How is it any different?]
Because God never said that he was going to increase the pain of dental work as punishment for disobeying Him. He did say, however, that He would increase the pain of childbirth as punishment. That's the difference.
Its like being grounded by your parents, and then sneaking out the window. This is obviously defying them by skirting their punishment.
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How do you skirt the punishment of an all powerful being? Let me guess, he allows those drugs to work in your body during childbirth so he can test to make sure you're obeying him and if you don't, you go to hell? Well at least there aren't a lot of naive people who don't know/don't remember every single verse in the bible and so they don't know it's disobeying him and at least there aren't people who can't read to begin with. Oh wait...
Okay, you are obviously not a woman who has been through labor. Talk to me after you have delivered a 7 lb 7 oz girl and a 9 lb 6 oz boy. One I had drugs, the other was natural. Please, give me drugs any day of the week. Drugs do not take away ALL the pain. It just makes it more bearable.
If God did not want woman to have some relief, then SHE would not have shown doctors how to develop drugs to help women in labor.
Please, make sure you know what in the HECK you are talking about before you stick your foot in your mouth (or your hands in this aspect).
If you trip and break your leg, isn't that God's will? Aren't you skirting God's will by having your leg set? Applying anti-biotics to a cut kills God's friends the bacteria who are being fruitful and mulitplying in your wound. If God didn't want you to have an infection he wouldn't have given you one.
'And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;' Genesis 3:17
HAHAHAHAHA! Sorry I have this insane vision of a nine-month pregnant woman sneaking out her window to get an epidural to defy her parents! You are a dolt, stickittothyneighbor. I hope you have my experience in the delivery room, try to hug your wife in the middle of a labor pain, and have to get first aid for the scratches down your back(she removed a mole with her fingernails). Only I hope it is your male member she grabs, then maybe you'll understand.
allow me to quote jack davenport as "steve" in the british sitcom, "coupling":
[on the pain of childbirth being "part of being a woman"]
"YEA, BUT IT'S THE PART WE CAN FIX!"
Purportedly all pain if for our moral betterment. Therefore, all institutions - such as hospitals - that exist to alleviate pain, as well as all drugs and medications, are directly contrary to the will of the Almighty.
Fuck. You. If your god was sick enough to punish women with horrible pains during childbirth, and then damns them for trying to take away some of said pains, then he doesn't deserve to be worshipped. Loving, right. -_-
Perhaps, if you insist on seeing it that way, the sign that God 'allowed' anethetics to be developed for women in labor should point that there is no 'original sin,' or that he's no longer mad at us for that?
Uh-oh. The Bro's gonna have a fit when he catches Lovethyneighbor quoting from something other than the KJB. The KJB doesn't sya "pain" - it says "sorrow".
Anyway, the Bible just says He's going to increase Eve's pain. Where does it say God is going to increase pain for Eve's descendants ? If you're going to quote the Bible, stick to the actual scripture; don't make up stuff to agree with your own ideas.
Plus I thought Jesus paid for our sins. How come women didn't suddenly find childbirth easier after Jesus died? And if God's will can be overridden by a simple bag of epidural medication, he doesn't sound very omnipotent (this is the same basic argument that was used for eventually putting lightning rods on churches).
The analogy with escaping parental punishment is false: unless maybe you're Jesus, your parent isn't the omnipotent Lord of the Universe.
This is more or less the Fundie view of women in a nutshell; Eve tempted Adam, therefore Eve is an evil temptress, and thus, all women are evil temptresses and must be controlled and kept in their place to protect the menfolk. Therefore, anything that helps women escape their "curse" is evil, because women supposed to be inherently more sinful, and must be punished.
Nevermind that you could use the story of Original Sin to claim that men are gullible morons who should never be in a position of power, because they're too easily swayed. Obviously, this is just as a ridiculous as claiming that women are to be punished with childbirth.
It's actually terrifying that there's people who still think like this. I'd understand if this were the 17th century; but the 21st? Scary, and depressing.
In looking at this further, I find that fundies who usually quote the KJB for everything, studiously avoid that translation (which says "sorrow")in favor of the modern ones (which say "pain") when discussing this issue. Once again, another example of fundie cherry-picking to support foregone conclusions.
If you're going to apply this to epidurals then what if there are complications with the pregnancy? If a woman and baby would die as a result of these complications, would the use of medical science to save her life be against God's punishment?
I'm assuming that pregnancy complications are part of the all-inclusive punishment package too, right?
What you're telling me is that I should suffer pain in childbirth because some bimbo who lived over 6000 years ago ate an apple given to her by a talking snake, thus disobeying a god who didn't tell HER not to? One of us has been sniffing too much nitrous oxide, and it ain't me
Going of what Papabear said. Read Deuternomy 28. That is what God said would happen to people as punishment if they didn't obey his laws. That includes being struck down by a whole pile of diseases and ailments. Any medicine is a sin. Jesus said as much too. Furthermore in Deuteronomy 28, horrible things were going to happen to you and your family as part of your punishment, therefore locks on your door are a sin, home and self defense are sins oh and so's thinking.
Using this same logic, I guess modern agriculture technology would be a sin, too. After all, painful toil while raising crops was supposed to be Adam's punishment. I'm tempted to troll T4C just to see how lovethyneighbor would react to such an idea.
My guess is, Lovethyneighbor, you never had a child with or without anesthetics. It still hurts with painkillers.
The most stupid thing my doctor said to me right after my son was born was "Was it more of a pressure or a pain?" Hel-lo! I was crying out in PAIN, you idiot. I know the difference.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure childbirth in humans is more painful than in apes or dogs or horses due to our longer gestation period and bipedality. Yeah, I just made up a word. Uh, I think.
Oh, there's that E word again.
1. Notice that women sure scream a lot when giving birth, and die quite often, too. Realize that compared to cattle they really seem to suck at that giving birth business.
2. As a superstitious, semi-nomadic Bronze Age shepherd with no understanding of biology and who considers rubbing a sick person with consecrated oils and praying to be bleeding-edge medical treatment, attempt to find an explanation that fits with your patriarcal, mysogynistic culture.
3. Goddidit!
4. ???
5 Profit!
So, women are skirting divine punishment through painkillers?
Doesn't that defeat the whole "omnipotent" aspect of your deity?
Epidurals = today's iron chariots?
Didn't their god also curse Adam to work by the sweat of his brow to feed himself (and presumably Eve and their kids). So if you're not a farmer, or you defying Gawd. What about if you're retired? Wealthy enough to not need to work? if you wanted to use FundyLogic, then any technology which makes work easier and more efficient is defying Gawd's will, as Man was supposed to suffer in his work.
just a reminder to some of the people, this one is the other, more rationaly run teens4christ. i think we need some sort of paranthesis thing now with this one having (the sane one) and randy's having (the "insert insult here" one)
I think this post illustrates how unjust God is in his punishments and how as Christians, if they believe God really did make childbirth painful for all women as punishment for Eve's sin as the bible says, then they're actually defying God by not accepting their punishment.
I get the feeling this person isn't a Christian and is just showing how ridiculous another bible story is.
Actually, it's is more like being grounded for something your great great great great great -grandmother did when she was a teenager, and then playing a video game to alleviate the boredom.
Why aren't you railing against farming equipment too? It makes working the ground easier, which means farmers are skirting God's punishment for Adam.
And the chances that this person has ever had a significant other, I would say, is 0.
My belief, Lovethyneighbor , is that if it really bothered God, It(or He, if you prefer) would have done something about it by now. Came down and told us that it was wrong. There no exact prohibition of aid to birthing women, just the line that they are meant to struggle in childbirth:
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
- Genesis, 3:16
He never said that women could not help themselves while "bringing forth" her children.
But I do like your username!, in case you or any other Fundamentalist Christian read this and think I'm an evil person.
Yes, it's not fair that women take pain killers because your precious, all loving god punishes ALL women for the mistake of the first woman.
What a spiteful, petty, pathetic creature he must be.
Well, your analogy is ridiculous. What are your parents going to do if you scape anyway?. And by the way, being a pastor is a sin, or a clerk, or a bus driver, didn't God say to Adam that his punishment for disobeying him was working the land with his sweat?. And everytime you eat packed food is the same story, or did you get it from the land?, why if you're using a truck or so?
Until all men quit their current jobs, pick up a rake and/or plow (with no horse!), and start sweating in the fields like black slaves toiling in Southern plantations, you can kindly shut the heck up.
Okay, I'm all for men having a say in whether his girlfriend/wife has an abortion or not, since it's his kid too, and he'll be affected by whatever happens. She has an easy way out of caring for a child, he doesn't.
But damn it, if this person is a man, they need to shut up. A woman getting pain meds isn't affecting him at all!
In that case, you´d better not have a fridge and that your male figures are not working in tie and collar jobs. According to the Bible, man has to eat by the work of the earth, with the sweat of his forehead.
Have you given birth to a baby? If not, then you have no say in the matter. As I have not given birth either, I have no real say in the matter, either. Thanks and goodbye.
Punishment for what, btw? For Eve wanting a bit of knowledge? That is just inane. And the snake made her do it. I gather the snake was male, shouldn't women listen to and obey males, in your belief system?
There was very little dental work done before the 20th century, only removing the most painful ones. The pain of dental work is nothing to childbirth, I guess. The one miscarriage that I had did hurt MUCH more than any visit to the dentist ever did, and the pain lasted for several days.
"He did say, however, that He would increase the pain of childbirth as punishment. That's the difference."
So the doctor who delivers the pain medication is evidently more powerful, and more compassionate than your god.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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