[Second law allows local decrease of entropy, which is all evolution requires.]
The local decrease is ALWAYS temporary, which is what Evolution DOESN'T require. You have to keep defying continually.
The 2 law says anything LEFT TO IT'S OWN DEVICES tends toward DISORDER. Adding energy does NOT do anything unless the energy is AVAILABLE FOR USE.
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Adding energy does NOT do anything unless the energy is AVAILABLE FOR USE.
One word: sunlight.
Sorry, the Earth is not the closed-system model that you think it is regarding the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. You're completely and erroneously missing a rather small ball of fire in space that we call the Sun.
Temporary: Not permanent.
Billions of years isn't a permanent length of time, it's just much longer than your brain can understand.
The local decrease is ALWAYS temporary, which is what Evolution DOESN'T require.
So explain what decrease in entropy is required by a chimp and a human having a common ancestor?
Of course! You are right! If only there were some massive energy source outside the Earth that could provide virtually limitless energy via some sort of wave/particle
But enough dreaming, it is sunny so I must take my car to the garage to get the sunroof fixed. I might buy some sunscreen on the way so I don't get sunburned when I go to the beach to sunbathe later on
CAPS LOCK MAKES ME RIGHT!!!!!
(By the way, information and entropy are two different things; the second law doesn't affect evolution.)
In other news, The Jamo is hilarious. ;)
So you're basically trying to refute 150 years worth of scientific study, research, experimentation, and discovery with two semi-coherent sentences on a topic you don't fully understand?
> The local decrease is ALWAYS temporary, which is what Evolution DOESN'T require.
You've never run into "temporary" things, have you? Those things tend to happen often enough to annoy you. A lot. In a hojillion years, who can even begin to count all of the temporariness going on?
In short, you're confusing "temporary" with "can't ever happen again once it has happened".
Aww, why do I even bother, the thermodynamics argument has been shot down so many times it's not even funny.
You fail physics forever. Energy available for use? Gee Fred, how about that wind, spurred on by solar radiation. Or hey, convection off heated earth, causing local pressure cells, bringing on rain. Or any number of solar energy input driven planetary processes all around us.
*Nerd voice activated*
You FOOL! You cannot possibly comprehend what you're talking about!
*End nerd voice*
The local decrease is ALWAYS temporary, which is what Evolution DOESN'T require.
Sure, the local decrease is always "temporary". Eventually, the sun will exhaust its nuclear fuel, go dead and all life on earth will cease to be - in about maybe another 5 billion years. Exactly how is that relevant to the Theory of Evolution?
As long as the Sun exists, there will be a local decrease of entropy in the Solar System. And don't claim you know thermodynamics better than actual physicists-- you don't, and saying otherwise is very arrogant. I don't even know what you're trying to say in the last sentence. Is this some Hovindian "harnessing mechanism" drivel?
The energy is not being left to it's own devices. It's being collected by plants, which use it to make sugars, which are broken down and most of their energy is released as heat (note the entropy increasing there? And photosynthesis is incredibly inefficient, lots of energy lost there too.)
And it is temporary. At the moment, you are alive, and thus are defying entropy (except not, because you need to constantly add energy to maintain that state of affairs.) eventually, you will die, and break down, and entropy will increase.
Huh? What? Err, no, that's not how it works. Sunlight (energy) is put to work by the receiving entity.
Doubt that? Lock yourself in the basement away from all sunlight and without any other source of Vitamin D and see how well you do.
The local decrease is ALWAYS temporary, which is what Evolution DOESN'T require.
Well, the Sun WILL eventually burn out, so yes, it IS temporary. It's still enough time for evolution to take place.
The 2 law says anything LEFT TO IT'S OWN DEVICES tends toward DISORDER
No it doesn't. Thermodynamics by definition (hell, it's IN the word) deals with heat flow not order vs. chaos. And, in fact, an increase in entropy can actually INCREASE order under certain conditions.
Adding energy does NOT do anything unless the energy is AVAILABLE FOR USE.
I had no idea that photosynthesis was no longer happening. Seems those plants are all wasting their time producing chlorophyll.
What a nutjob! Typical distortion of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, and advocating drdino to boot...
BTW I think this is a repost, as Yahweh posted on that thread in 2005 as user FSTDT.
The local decrease is ALWAYS temporary, which is what Evolution DOESN'T require.
Correct. Evolution doesn't require that.
Oh, sorry, you meant that evolution requires that the decrease is not temporary? My mistake. You are an idiot, after all.
I think the real answer to people like Ilovecartoons (not that they would listen) is the tie up between thermodynamic and informational entropy.
Very loosely, for I am neither a theoretical physicist nor an information scientist, an increase in the disorder in a system is also an increase in the information held in that system. Two atoms interact and both now carry information about the other and about their interaction. The one that had more energy will have lost some and vice versa. Sum that over all the particles in a closed system and you have a very precise measure of entropy.
Thus an increase in the entropy is an increase in information held in that system. Inputs from outside the system can add to the amount of information held as the quanta entering now become part of the system.
One of the big problems of black holes was that they locked information away thus decreasing local entropy causing Hawking great problems. He eventually lost a bet because there are ways information inside a black hole can escape
Not at all. It's a question of how temporary "temporary" is. If a thing begins and ends, it's temporary, not permanent, even if the time between the beginning and the ending consists of billions of years. Evolution has occurred in life on Earth and ONLY there as far as we know, and in a universe as large as ours, that definitely counts as a local decrease. We know that Earth will not always be habitable (at least not by life forms we know of) because eventually the Sun will die and the Earth will no longer receive the heat that life on Earth so desperately needs. That definitely counts as temporary.
Evolution so far has only been observed to occur within the frame of a temporary local decrease in entropy which is happening on Earth. As the universe's entropy increases, the sun will eventually stop being what we need it to be and stop introducing energy to the open system that is the Earth, and everything on Earth will die.
But an infinite amount of evidence for anything which contradicts his received notions about the bible would not make him drool in the right direction. Similarly, an infinity of lies and parroted inanities are worth it, in his opinion, if it helps him to maintain his bogle-eyed faith. Therefore, he can't help but to be nothing more than a no-hope internet trolling imbecile for the madman in his head that he calls God.
I think I see the problem. You have a bad translation there. Your quote was taken from the Greek:
Derp da-derp derp-derp da DERP derpaderpderp, derp derp derp derpaderpderp DERPA derpderp. (etc.)
Which in turn, was a bad translation from the Aramaic:
Buck buck-bawk buck-buck ba-BAWK buckbuckbuck, buck ba bawk ba-ba-buck-bawk BAAAWK babuckbuck. (etc.)
See how that happened?
Yeah, that's pretty much irrefutable. Amazing how every scientist who ever lived missed that.
Oh wait, I see the problem. "Ilovecartoons" is using cartoon physics to analyze evolutionary theory.
@Thrutch
He eventually lost a bet because there are ways information inside a black hole can escape
Do explain, I'm very intrigued.
Second law is about closed systems, with no added energy. We have the sun pouring in energy on a regular basis.
I know almost nothing about these things, but this particular fact did sink in, after a few repeats here. Why can't it sink into the fundie minds as well?
E(c) = T(h) - T(c) / T(h)
or, basically, a heat engine can never be 100% efficient. Please fundies explain to me how this law (the 2nd of Thermodynamics), is violated by evolution. Please do so using mathematical formulas showing your understanding of the subject
@hamster
That's the problem people think that 'order' means what they think it means when they are discussing entropy. It has nothing to do with prettiness or togetherness or form of any kind, but everything to do with how much energy can be transformed into useful work. Some is always lost, adding to the entropy of the system, because that energy can never again be made use of for work (in a closed system) adding to the entropy of the system. Entropy must either increase or remain constant (most people forget about the 'or remain constant' part, too.
Earth is not a closed system. Neither is the sun.
The sun pumps energy into our planet's biosphere. The sun does this at the cost of mass--fuel. It's burning through its fuel supply at the rate of around 600 million metric tons a second. When its fuel supply finally runs too low, our sun will die, just as all stars will eventually. This is a gross oversimplification of what actually happens, but it will do for our purposes.
The laws of thermodynamics are completely satisfied; Earth intercepts only a very, very small amount of the total energy the sun pumps out into space. The sum of all energy available to all life on Earth is only the tiniest fraction of a percent of all the power the sun wastes, and all of our lives are bought as the fuel of our star trickles away. Entropy on Earth may decrease, but that of the sun is increasing at a far, far higher rate to compensate.
So no. You're wrong. You don't understand thermodynamics, or the concept of entropy, or basic physics or biology. I daresay you don't understand anything at all.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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