IF life is unaccountable to any 'higher power' or GOD...and we have no intrinsic value as human beings (not created in God's image but just random meat-puppet animals) then life has no meaning and there really is absolutely ZERO penalty for living life any way we want to...murder, rape, torture etc...who cares? see what I mean? we can PRETEND to live a 'good' life...but there is absolutely ZERO reason why we should.
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"then life has no meaning and there really is absolutely ZERO penalty for living life any way we want to...murder, rape, torture etc...who cares?"
Because harming *any* member(s) of the community causes harm to the *whole* community, and it's just plain *wrong* to rape, murder, and torture. With or without your concept of "God", people will *still* care when others are hurt or killed.
Y'know, it's one thing when an abusive spouse, lover, or parent drums it into someone's head that "you're nothing now, but you would be less than nothing without me".
In those sad cases, the abuser is actually there to beat on and/or yell at them. In the case of the whole "we humans would be worthless without God" meme, though, countless people allow themselves to be abused in the name of an abuser that never truly existed outside of the minds of its victims. Pathetic, n'est-ce pas ?
meat-puppet? really? meat-puppet? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
....you see, it's a vagina joke?
......and he doesn't get it
1) You only do good deeds because you believe that you will get a reward? How selfish.
2) So your belief in god keeps you from doing bad things? Why do you need an imaginary parent looking over your shoulder? Grow up.
I am sorry that you see no value in humans and in human life except in the context of an imaginary deity.
I am sorry that living a good life because we are 21st century civilized human beings who care for each other is not enough for you.
I am sorry that you are less than human in your thoughts and aspirations.
I cannot wish you well because you do not merit it.
You really are a brain rotted cretinous xian. You sure as shit are a failure as a human being.
I am being deliberately harsh. You must recognise that your parents are to blame for your current confusion. You were born an atheist. Your parents changed you from a potential free thinker into the troubled person you have become. The God you have been taught to believe in does not exist. Dump him and the fictional Jesus and life will start looking a whole lot better. You only have one life. Make the best of it.
@Equalist: They have to have that threat of their invisible skydaddy getting pissed at them in order to behave themselves, vs the rest of us who do what's right because we know it's the right thing to do.
That's because fundies are taught that all humans are evil scum, damned by original sin, requiring the threat of hell and promise of salvation to keep their evil impulses in check. Atheists simply can't be good because of original sin.
"IF life is unaccountable to any 'higher power' or GOD."
Evaluates to true
"we have no intrinsic value as human beings (not created in God's image but just random meat-puppet animals)"
Evaluates to false
Therefore..
"life has no meaning and there really is absolutely ZERO penalty for living life any way we want to"
Evaluates to (true && false) = false.
Quite aside from the threat of punishment by everybody else, you should have some level of evolved empathic instinct that prevents you from acting like a complete psychopath.
You're either lying outright to protect your faith, or you're a detrimental mutation that's deficient in empathy and thus has less than average chance of survival for any length of time in human society without idiot religion to keep you in line. (an unfortunate corrollary of this, if true, is that if religion continues to exist for long enough, it could allow this deficiency to propagate by protecting it despite its damaging effects on the species)
Just because your god might not exist does NOT mean that life is worthless.
It also does NOT mean that you can go on a rampage and do whatever you want. God or no god, we do have morals (well, some of us). And even if hell does not exist, we do have this place called "prison" and if you get caught doing any of those things you'll be sent to one to be ass raped in a shower for the rest of your life.
No, he's totally right. It's not the fact that not murdering makes people like us more, and thus allowing us to advance more, or that not raping makes people like us more, and thus allowing us to advance more. Morality is selfish. I will not deny that. But not having a religion had nothing to do with morals. Aside from the fact that ours aren't based on a book.
The only reason is because all animals instinctively try to survive.
It's the sad truth that the only purpose of our existence is to keep existing, to try to get the high score in life.
Life is all just a game, and if you don't play, you die. That's how it is.
Sweet dreams.
Why is doing what is best for the advancement and survival of our species such a hard angle to cope with?
Not to mention that our intrinsic value is that we share 99+% of our genes with all other people, so in theory despite our differences protecting other humans means protecting another version of ourselves. And the occurrence of life is rare enough that it assigns all life a pretty big value.
"IF life is unaccountable to any 'higher power' or GOD...and we have no intrinsic value as human beings (not created in God's image but just random meat-puppet animals)"
-So in other words, unless we enslave ourselves to some mythical being, we're worthless.
"then life has no meaning and there really is absolutely ZERO penalty for living life any way we want to...murder, rape, torture etc...who cares? see what I mean? we can PRETEND to live a 'good' life...but there is absolutely ZERO reason why we should."
-Simple human decency? Respect for the planet and all who live on it? A desire to make the most of this one shot we have at life, not waste it away atoning for my sins (doing time in prison, working to pay retributions, dodging the law), to treasure my freedom, to make the world a safe, happy place?
Why would I want to murder/rape/torture anyone. I obviously value life way more than these idiots, and even more obviously respect my fellow human beings.
Do you even know what intrinsic means? Of course humans (and other life) have intrinsic value.
But anyway, this is the typical "without god we can do anything we want so let us go murder people"
Religious people concern me over this default position. Are they psychopaths?
So all the things around you that you value, you only value because God created them?
I value things like my friends and family, the world around me, the beauty of nature, the wonders and mysteries of the Universe whether or not God exists. The things are intrinsically valuable, their source has no effect on that value.
Fundies are always on about murder, rape, torture etc if life is unaccountable to an imaginary sky fairy. And yet, we see comparatively little of it going on here in the UK compared to some places, and we don't give a toss about god over here. Certainly less than in America which has a huge majority Christian population. Explain that Echoes. I won't hold my breath.
Only to you immoral Cretins.
To people who WANT to be social and kind, that IS their reason.
I know it is very hard for you to understand, because Cretins arent big on morallity, but some people out there do good just for goodness' sake. I know you Cretins have been foaming at the mouth over it because it makes your true immoral colors show.
Perhaps the one being murdered, raped, or tortured cares. You see, humans are very social animals. Most humans try to form groups with other humans to increase their rate of survival. Bad things are bad because they hurt another human, thus hurting the species.
Face it, you are one sick fuck.
If you need an ancient invisible sky daddy to shake his finger at you just to keep you in line, then you're not exactly "good" now are you? In fact, if the only reason you're pretending to be good for heavenly brownie points, then that makes you one evil son of a bitch.
Some of us are good for the sake of being good -true goodness(TM) - no need for a promise of reward and no need for fear of punishment. We're good because we have been taught to be good.
Learning - something you'll never understand.
"we can PRETEND to live a 'good' life...but there is absolutely ZERO reason why we should. "
No reason you can understand at any rate. Which means if law enforcement breaks down I will be gunning for the fundies first, before they can kill me.
"ZERO penalty for living life any way we want to...murder, rape, torture etc...who cares? see what I mean? we can PRETEND to live a 'good' life...but there is absolutely ZERO reason why we should."
We're born, we rot in the ground. We have no control over our conception, nor can we prevent death. So we might as well get on with it. In between having the umbilical cord cut & taking our first breath, and carking it, we make our lives as interesting and productive as possible. And if we can do something that impacts upon humanity positively (helping people in any way or adding to the sum of human knowledge), or at least doing something memorable in an equally positive way, so much the better. And to treat other people the way we'd wish them to treat us. And to not harm others in any way, shape or form. To have RESPECT for everyone. The basis of our morals? Taking Personal Responsibility for our actions. It's called Humanism.
There. The Meaning Of Life. Simple, eh? Now what gives religions the RIGHT to complicate such a simple philosophy with the fairytales, guilt, dogma and overall bullshit in the way they do? To quote John Lennon in 'Imagine':
Nothing to kill or die for
Inn a way, he was right when he said that the Beatles were 'Bigger than Jesus'. In later life, Lennon was like Jesus, in looks & attitude. But unlike the Bible's 'Jesus', at least John Lennon existed. He wrote some of the greatest songs ever, such was his legacy. And he has an airport named after him.
And that's the difference.
So, you are basically a repressed sociopath who is only kept in check through fear of a the bigger bully, who will punish you if you get out of line? Ok.
And you claim you are morally superior to atheists, how?
It really baffles me that there's a portion of our population that would go around hurting people just because some invisible father figure wasn't watching them all the time. Isn't that grounds for commitment? Being a danger to yourself and others?
Can people not have empathy and therefore see what they're doing is going to emotionally and/or physically hurt someone so they wouldn't do it? The whole golden rule thing, treat others as you wish to be treated.
It's a depressing thought if it's new to you but take it as a starting point and then start building life around it.
Imagine how you'd like other people to treat you and go with that. There doesn't need to be a supernatural referee involved.
Except for all the human-created consequences you'll bring down upon yourself: prison, shooting, beatings, avoidance, ridicule, murder, etc.
You're not seriously suggesting that murder has no consequence, are you?
Life is somewhat more plesant for everyone if we do not spend full-time murdering, raping and torturing. If we did that, how could we have Little League Baseball, huh? Or a neighborhood picnic? What a mess! "Please pass the ..., arrrrgh!"
Maybe psychopaths need god to make them feel saner. I don't know if there is a god or not,but I don't see any reason to act nice if nobody knows I'm the one doing bad things. If I don't get in trouble for it,why shouldn't I kill if I feel like it? Why shouldn't I steal,why shouldn't I kick a child in the nuts? Yeah,yeah,I know. I'm still thinking in the christian mindset. I just very recently turned agnostic. But I honestly can't understand why I shouldn't do bad things if I can and nobody will stop me. If I get pleasure from being an asshole,why not be an asshole? All I have to do is stay anonymous,and I can be as evil as I want.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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