Personally, I think part of the problem is semantic. "Date Rape" is a common term used to express the outrage and horror of a drunk woman waking up to find she has been violated while semi-conscious, but also to express the regret of a woman who gave in to a semiviolent seduction. The word "rape" is here more for emotional effect than legal meaning: legally the word means intercourse without consent.
In the older and saner days, the real words used for this kind of behavior, words like "seduction" and "violation" had this kind of horror and this kind of emotional nuance we associate with rape. The Sexual Revolution (as organized, no doubt, by Asmodeus, the archdemon of Lust) deliberately denatured such words, until to modern ears they seem quaint or even alluring. "Seduction" was the word used to describe the crime of getting consent from a woman who was not old enough or sober enough to give consent.
Since the old words have been sucked dry of meaning, we use new words, and they are soon to be sucked dry of meaning. All that will happen is that real rape victims will be assumed to be like "Date rape" victims, that is, victims of seduction.
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If you're semi-conscious, you can't give consent to anything. If someone has sex with you then, it IS rape, pure and simple. If you're not old enough or sober enough to give consent, then someone can't get consent from you. When were these older, saner days, btw?
Sex seems to be all about violence and power to you, dearie. Sex can be fun, invigorating, consensual, sensual, if all involved want it just as much, that is.
Date rape victims are real rape victims.
Rape is un-consensual sex. If a woman is drunk to the point of semi consciousness, she cannot give consent. It's that simple.
BTW, John, I don't want you anywhere near my wife or daughters. If you don't understand what rape is, and you want to dumb down the meaning of rape, then I would not feel safe having you around any women.
Sex with a woman too intoxicated, too young, or too incompetent to give valid consent has always been "rape", regardless of whether it was frequently prosecuted or not. "Seduction" was a civil cause of action for when a woman surrendered her virginity upon a credible, but false, promise of marriage. It is largely a dead letter.
Tell it to the judge John. You will still be convicted, and justly so. Do you know why? Because EVERY rapist, no matter how brutal, no matter how old his victim was, hides behind the lie of "It wasn't rape. She wanted it!"
How does it feel to know that you think like a rapist John? Does it fill you with disgust or (as I suspect) cement your position on your defensive high-horse? If the former, then I turn your religion's shtick back on you and say "repent and change your ways." If the latter, then you are the only demon I see here.
Apart from the stuff about Asmodeus, this isn't really that bad, is it? I mean, as far as I can tell, he's acknowledging that date rape is as bad as any other kind of rape and that one should not try downplay the negativity of it through names.
Show me any passage from any period that uses "seduction" with the same meaning of horror and violence as "rape." Rape is an act primarily of the exercise of power rather than sexual attraction and the fact that the target is unable to defend themselves does not make it seduction. A middle-aged woman (or man) who is stone-cold sober can be seduced; the word has no connotations of age or intoxication. It is notable that English and many other languages use "seduce" and "seduction" figuratively in ways which can be negative, but also entirely positive. The figurative use of "rape" is not and never has been positive.
"but also to express the regret of a woman who gave in to a semiviolent seduction."
First of all, how can something be "semiviolent", and second, if there is any violence involved (unless you're into that kinda thing) it's no longer a seduction, but rape. Period.
At first, I was going, "hey that guys makes sort of sense, in his stupid, sexist way." And suddenly "Asmodeus, the archdemon of Lust" took me by suprise and exposed the true levels of crazy of this guy.
By the way, that "makes sense" doesn't mean I agree with him. Rather, that means his logic is sound, for his flawed starting points. Until of course the "Asmodeus" sidecomment exposed exactly how wrong those starting points were.
(as organized, no doubt, by Asmodeus, the archdemon of Lust)
This, this is where you lost any credibility of sounding like a sane person.
This seemed like standard-issue rape apologist schtick (boy, it seems weird writing that), but then Asmodeus, the archdemon of Lust showed up.
But then again, according to #1571385, it isn't Fundie to believe demons caused the Sexual Revolution. Can you please enlighten us a bit further about what you believe is and isn't fundie?
I can see an argument for saying that taking advantage of someone when they're drunk isn't as bad as forcing them. It doesn't make it right though. I mean assault isn't as bad as murder but it's still wrong and illegal. Anyway, 'date rape' can sometimes refer to situations where force is used because some idiot thought that buying someone dinner entitled them to ownership of that person's body, or situations where drugs are used deliberately. 'Date rape' is still rape. (The clue's in the name genius.)
The gray area is where someone does give consent when they've been drinking. Clearly if they're paralytic it's wrong and if they've been gazing lustfully at you over a single glass of wine it's fine, but where's the line between those two extremes? And does it make a difference if you were drunk too? I mean if you were both off your faces, neither of you was really competent to give consent, however enthusiastic you both were at the time.
Just what the fuck is "semiviolent seduction"??
What, you bring flowers, buy her dinner, and then hold her down and choke her while you rape her, but it's only "semi" violent because you romanced her a bit first, and you didn't punch her?
@ not fundie
Interesting. The bimbos always assumed all virgins were religious, now we have FSTDT jumping on that bandwagon. Looks like Social Justice Sally claims another site.
WTH is that supposed to mean? I think I stated my theory before, that our resident “hit-and-run” concern troll is getting more and more incomprehensible.
@Broton:
I second that, at least PG-13 was somewhat entertaining. PC is trying way to hard.
Pc is just too aggressive me thinks. its either threatening or over the top. Not funny.
Also!
Not sure what he is saying, though semi violent seduction threw me for a loop.
I'll echo the likes of anevilmeme and say "thanks for making the rest of us look bad, dumbass." Seriously, it's guys like you who give A Room of Our Own and similarly lunatic sites their base of support. Don't like "feminazis"? Then stop creating them.
Also, laws against rape, date rape, et al, protect men as well as women, so stop acting like it's all some kind of feminist plot to screw you over.
@blargo
I would concur that there are grey areas where alcohol is involved, and that if I have been drinking I may not be able to tell how much my date has been drinking, or process the effect that might have on her. But that's why we have a trial, to determine factors like that, and figure out whether a crime was committed. It's not perfect, but nothing ever is.
"The word "rape" is here more for emotional effect than legal meaning: legally the word means intercourse without consent."
Being violated while semi-conscious is not consent. "Semi-violent seduction," as you call it, isn't seduction, and it isn't consent. These examples you give are NOT consent, and are the very definition of rape; the legal definition that you, yourself gave.
If you believe it's ok to violate someone who isn't conscious enough to consent, or to bully someone into "consenting," then you are attempting to justify rape, and this is one of many things that makes you a disgusting sack of shit.
Oh? I thought date rape could happen when you're with your boyfriend/girlfriend on a date, and you drug them. And do them. Due to lack of consent, it's rape. If she/he says no, it's effing rape, and you're going to prison. I'm aware that it can happen when not on a date, but I'm using date as an example so this jackass can understand.
But then again, don't take me, the ringlet wearing, prissy, fluffy, silk boy seriously. After all, they're only words of mine.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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