Baptists never left the Catholic church; we were never part of it; we existed before it did.
Lutheran - Martin Luther
Where was the church started?
Lutheran - Germany
79 comments
@Brian - that's the original Baptists, who are probably spinning in their graves at what the Southern branch has done to the denomination.
Well, as a lifelong Lutheran, let me assure you that Martin Luther did not, in fact, start the Lutheran Church. Until his dieing day Luther insisted that he was and would alsways be a Roman Catholic. He did not want to break away from the church, he wanted to reform it. Hence the term "reformation," get it? It was others who took Luther's writings and based a new church on his thought after it becaume obvious that Rome would never reform.
Where's the independent scholarship proving the theory of Baptist perpetuity?
Actually, Baptists broke away from the Lutheran church, so I'm guessing they started in the area now known as Germany as well.
Bah. Just a diluted version of Calvinism. Or maybe not diluted, but deluded....
Mrs. Debbie, thou art full of poopoo.
Well, Debbie, would you mind explaining why the fuck Baptists celebrate Christmas on December 25th, why Baptists recognize Sunday as the sabbath (and not Saturday as Jesus did), and why Baptists seem to hold on to a lot of other early Catholic traditions. Baptists are nothing but wayward Roman Catholics, you all had better kneel down and kiss the pope's ruby ring when you come crawling back to your mother church bitch
flipper, I believe Saul forced the NT dogma into the OT channels, which caused a major regression to the christian movement.
Even if this was true (and it sure as hell isn't)...SO WHAT?!
straight from wikipedia:
In 1639, Williams established a Baptist church in Providence, Rhode Island and Clarke began a Baptist church in Newport, Rhode Island.
What amazes me is how was it possible that it was dormant until, what the hell, it reappeared on the Sixteenth century long after all those guys. Where is the Catholic church anyway and why this guys claim to have split from it, instead of the Baptist one?
i despise religion and all other self-delusion, but, didn't the bearded shepherd's butt-buddy dip his head in a river so technically didn't that make him a baptist? sorry, i'm a scientist and this is scriptural semantics
Praetyre:
Not quite -- Jesus founded an unnamed movement that became Christianity when Paul more or less took over. Catholicism didn't show up until something like two hundred years later when Constantine told all the Christian bishops in the Empire to stop squabbling and come to an agreement over their doctrines. (Constantine, being a follower of many religions, needed it straightforward so he wouldn't get Mithraism and Christianity confused...)
Well, inasmuch as Wikipedia has anything at all useful to say, it appears Mithraism in its Romanized form dates to something like a century before Christianity. I'm not too sure about the exact resemblance as regards salvation, etc, but the stories of Mithras and Jesus seem to be very similar, and it's reasonable to assume that if nothing else Christianity and Mithraism had sources in common, even if one wasn't directly derived from the other.
It's kind of orthogonal to my main point though -- Constantine was very much a syncretist whose views on religion were something like Pascal's Wager with multiple hands. By the time he came to rule, Christianity had gained significant power in the Empire, but had turned into a wild proliferation of denominations, with a diversity of theologies that modern Christianity would only dimly recognize. Wanting Christianity distilled down to its essentials, Constantine basically forced all the bishops under Rome's authority (rather than Byzantium, which took a different direction in the decades following Constantine's death) to sit down and hammer out a common Christian doctrine. Although it never completely quieted the doctrinal squabbles, it did kick many of the more esoteric variants to the curb and lay the foundation for what we now know as the Roman Catholic Church. Virtually all Western Christian denominations spring from that one act of Constantine's, though a few churches such as the Coptic and Eastern Orthodox branches developed along paralell but separate lines.
In a way, the RCC's insistence of apostolic succession clear back to Peter is similar to the IFB Baptist Succession doctrine, though with somewhat more credibility since the exact lines of attribution are lost in time, and really the whole concept of "first Pope" is rather separate from the RCC itself. But, whether there's any truth to it or not, there was no RCC before Constantine's edict.
This always cracks me up about Baptists. Nevermind the fact that there is no historical proof that this is the case. The early church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils would have loved to torture the Baptist church. But let's not forget that it was actually founded by an Anglican dissident named John Smythe. They were part of the Separatists, who were leaving the state sponsored church due to what they thought was spiritual lethargy in the Anglican church. But, this is T4C, and they are a bunch of brainwashed idiots. Poor things.
Well at least he understands that Jesus lived in the Middle East and wasn't a gung-ho white bread, Bud loving, gay-bashing, gun-toting, Ford driving American....
But, um, yeah, Jesus did not found the Baptist church
Well, this does illustrate how Mrs. Debbie could be stupid enough to marry some one like Bro. Randy. That is, assuming that "she" is not just one of Randy's sock puppets (a possibility that I, for one, am not yet ready to reject).
"Baptists never left the Catholic church; we were never part of it; we existed before it did.
List! What is yon sound in the distance? Why, it's the sound of all the Professors of History and Theology in the world laughing their tits off at you!
image image image
--EDIT--
Clicking on the quote link, it 404s. Which sums up Mrs. Debbie's knowledge of her own beliefs: Nonexistent.
>:D
and let me guess
"it says right here in the bible, John the Baptist, not John the Lutheran"
LOL, Jesus didn't start anything. The first followers were Jews with their own synagogue. 300 years later the Catholic church became the only legal one through the leadership of the Roman emperor Constantine I. Then the church split culturally in an eastern and a western part or a Greek and a Latin part, the Nestorian separated and later on became the Persian church and during the Mongol empire was even found in China. Then in 451 the monotheist separated (Syrian, Coptic, Armenian). In 1066 the great schism of east and west. The first great thing of the Baptists was the bloody conquer of the German Bishops city of Münster which they thought was the new Jerusalem and turned in it into a living hell. After the Bishop took the city back the leaders were killed and the bodies rotted for almost 50 years in cages hanged from the church tower (the cages are still there today). It took the Baptists almost 200 years to be accepted again in Europe. So your story is complete BS
Given Randy's meticulous efforts to censor the opinions expressed on his website, I can't imagine that he would endorse the concept of soul competency, which was a founding principle of the Baptist movement. In other words, Randy's clan is made up of self righteous hypocrites.
Please try and contain your surprise.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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