[Question:Why do theist reject the idea of a non-created universe and then say it was created by a non-created god?
God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.
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And according to the big bang theory, not only the three dimensions of space, but the dimension of time was created, or rather unraveled, as well. So the big bang doesn't need a cause either. Since after all, before time, cause and effect had no meaning.
Funny thing is, if you look closely enough, there is no cause and effect with or without time.
Or in other words, bwlobo has just called god quantum fluctuation. Fair enough. I think I can live with that.
well consider this.
if your god lives out side of time, where time does not exist per se, then god and our universe are mutually exclusive. let me explain, consider "God" performing a miracle in our universe, where he flooded the earth for example. for this to occur it would have to occur in 4 dimensional space, ie. somewhere on x, y, z, plus in a moment in time. now if "god" exists outside of time, he existed in a world of no moments, therefore for him to both create the universe, them after a certain time lapse, influence the universe again is impossible. if he was truly outside of time when he created time, he cannot interact with it again, so he becomes a deistic god who has no influence on our universe.
Explain how a being can exist that does not need to be created, exists outside of time and space, can affect both time and space, can defy all known laws of physics, and has no good evidence for himself despite all his complexities.
Creation is a time issue. God was acting before time when He created the universe.
1. The Bible states only that God created, at the very most, a single solar system. In fact only the Earth, the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are mentioned specifically as being created by the ever-loving Hand of Omega Jehovah. There is absolutely no mention of the other planets, asteroids, space dust, comets, or virtual particles arising from quantum fluctuations at the event horizon boundary layer.
2. The Holy Scripture explicitly disagrees with your assesment that Jehovah was creating things "before time". Genesis very clearly states that particular groups of creative acts were undertaken in the course of one day. The Bible goes on to say that Jehovah worked for six days and then rested on the seventh.
Wait, doesn't Genesis say that god created the heavens and earth in exactly one day? bwlobo, you are using bad science to contradict your holy book, and that's heresy. Please turn yourself in at the nearest depot for immediate stoning.
@BeeblebroxThe Bible goes on to say that Jehovah worked for six days and then rested on the seventh.
And I say he obviously is a slacker, as the work was no way near being done, especially mankind could have used a bit more tinkering IMHO. Anyway I don't think he deserved a day off just yet.
And by the way ... WTF has he been doing since that seventh day .... the bible no where mentioned he went ever back to work, the only things he did afterwards are the kind of games a sadistic little child plays on ants.
If you allow for the existence of "Non-Time" before there was ever existence, and the idea that time only exists in our universe and that there is an "outside", this might make some sense.
But it's really just straw grasping, it seems to me. For it to be believed, you have to allow for too much other stuff that can't be proven.
So, no, actually, bwlobo, yours is the logic that is flawed.
Your logic is flawed. The big bang is a time issue. The big bang was acting before time when it created the universe.
The big bang exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, The big bang has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since The big bang created time, cause and effect would never apply to it's existence.
Fixed.
Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false.
If it's false, show your workings out.
Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed.
You wouldn't have any spacetime either. Do you ever wonder why space and time are lumped together like that?
“People don't understand time, it's not what you think it is... complicated. Very complicated. People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non linear non subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.” ~Doctor Who
@Cymro
The Beast: Before time.The Doctor: What does that mean?The Beast: Before time.The Doctor: What does "before time" mean?!
"The Satan Pit", Doctor Who
"However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence"
If God doesn't need to be caused (can't be an effect), since he's outside time-cause-effect then he also can't be a cause (of the universe) either, since he's outside time-cause-effect.
So there.
Fail.
"Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed."
Interestingly, this same line of thinking could be used to argue for the non-created universe as well as God beyond space and time.
Ok, so god exists outside the realm of time, or even of existence as we know it. Why then would he create an alternate form of reality apart from himself where the rules of that system tell us that almost all of what we can see is contributed a series of natural phenomena beginning with the Big Bang. The problem with this (the idea of a god separate from his creation) remains that humans still are left to "prove themselves" worthy of eternity in heaven. An average of 80 years to audition for our place in something that we will never understand or can in our minds possibly conceive. No matter what, the idea of eternal damnation is still cruel and ludicrous because of this.
I am the Alpha. And I am the Omega.
I kicked off the cosmic evolution (which also resulted in abiogenesis and the evolution of life on this planet).
The tree of life is not some literal tree in some paradise which someone lost to humanity by means of gullibility. The tree of life is merely the logical cause&effect-tree that evolved when I caused the Big Bang. I am the Alpha.
At some point in time, that tree gave birth to a special human who grew up and then, at some point in his life, realized that he was the cause for reality. I woke up. I am the Omega.
Well, there you have it, friends, a Christian rewriting the Bible again. I don't think god's gonna like that.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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