[Jesus turning water into wine]
Tiger - Jews mixed vine from 1 part wine and 2 parts water up to 1 part wine and 6 parts water. Wine was used as a drink to quench the thirst, not to get drunk. You find this through whole OT and NT. It was a part of their tradition. People that drank undiluted wine was called drunkards and looked down on.
Jesus made the real thing, that is for sure. This wine was then taken from the amphora to a place it was mixed with water, then poured into the cups and served.
coronet Blue - Ever heard of delicious non-alcoholic wine?
36 comments
coronet Blue - Ever heard of delicious non-alcoholic wine?
Yes, it's called grape juice. And the problem is actually keeping the fresh, unpasteurized stuff from fermenting, since the yeasts are already present on the fruit themselves.
What the hell is "fermented water?" Water does not ferment.
Your Jesus created an alcoholic beverage, get over your self righteous, pompous self.
There is no biblical basis for that belief whatsoever.
Also, painful science fail. Fermented water, dumbfuck? Really ?
It was wine, which has not changed in the tens of thousands of years since man began the process of making it. Live with it.
Besides, it was a fucking party. Who hasn't had a little alcohol at a party?
These explanations are about as stupid as the explanation that a fundie Baptist friend once gave me: When the bible was being translated, there were two definitions for the word "wine:" Strong (alcoholic) drink and "fruit of the vine," i.e. grape juice. Since Jesus was a Christian and of course never drank alcohol, the second definition is the only correct one in this context. So Jesus turned water into grape juice.
He jumped through so many mental hoops it was all I could do to avoid awarding him with a Milk Bone.
So, Jewish people drank alcohol, what is the problem with that?. Or maybe there is no prohibition against drinking alcohol in the Bible, unlike what you expected?. Besides, there is a good reason why it's not forbidden. At the time, drinkable water was not as a available as today, let alone in a place where dessert covers a good deal of the country. Are they going to die in order to please you?
"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
- Matthew 11:19 (KJV)
So, according to the bible, Jesus did drink wine (presumably in moderation). Otherwise his opponents wouldn't have been able to use it against him. Wow, reading the bible sure helps when you talk about it. Maybe your lot should try it sometime.
I'd like some of that fermented water. And if it's fermented, wouldn't it be alcoholic anyway?
No fundie had problems with alcohol before the nineteenth century. Until that time drinking water was simply too dangerous. Calvin, Luther and Zwingli all drank wine and beer.
what Hasan Prishtina said. trying to drink water, in the ancient world, was decidedly hazardous; grapevines, fermentation, and brewing (as in beer) were the most common, reasonably effective ways of controlling just what kinds of bacterial and fungal colonies you were swallowing. wasn't until Pasteur that that really stopped being the case, to be honest.
the ancient Hebrews may very well have watered down their wine --- lots of folks did, ISTR we have decent historical evidence of that --- but that didn't make it a safe thing to do. controlling the fermentation (or brewing) process to keep the final product from getting too alcoholic was probably a better way to stay reasonably sober.
And now point out - chapter & verse - where it says that verbatim in the Bible...?
Remember: if the Bible doesn't specifically mention it, it never happened.
1 Timothy 5:23 (KJV): 'Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities'
...nope, not seeing the word 'non-achoholic' in that part of Scripture.
image
'A fundie must always be consistent'
-Lumiere
providing drinkable water, at the wedding, instead of some germ filled water.
Which was why alcohol was invented in the first place. It was only way to make water safe to drink, since your god didn't see fit to advise his followers to boil their water first.
~The evidence is in the bible. Noah got drunk; Lot got drunk and had sex with his daughters. Well he could hardly have dallied with a pillar of salt.
These people try to twist reality by denying plain words. Fundie word meaning changes No 1,00000000000000000000000000.
This wine was then taken from the amphora to a place it was mixed with water, then poured into the cups and served.
Although he's probably right about diluting it (just before serving it; never ahead of time) - we know the ancient Greeks did this - only the Authorized Pull-It-Out-Of-Your-Ass Version of the Bible actually says this was done with Jesus' wine.
So what that first miracle was, was providing drinkable water,
If that was the point then why didn't Jesus simply miracle up some clean water. We can make clean water using puny filters so surely the Son of God can magick up as much clean water as he wants. Hell, he could have conjured up Cherry Coke if he really felt like it. But no, he chose to make wine. And that tells me that Jesus isn't quite the teetotaler you want him to be.
actually one fundie did manage to say something right, but hey a stopped clock is right twice a day
I have a problem with alcohol, an allergy or an insanely low tolerance or something but anything with an ABV of more than 1% makes me deathly ill,
so yeah I've found some great non-alcoholic wines out there, and no they aren't just grape juice they are made like regular wine, but then dealcoholized, (alcohol content is filtered out until they're about an average of .5% ABV) quite tasty too, Ariel is my personal favourite but Sutter Home's Fre isn't that bad either
As people mentioned, wine, one cup or goblet will not even wound your mortal soul.
Most there would be cautious, it's not 18th century france, they seldom came across it, simple unspoiled people.
Those that had imbided liberally before may only sip now, because the worst hangover is a wine hangover, the closest to the wrath of God I've experienced.
Wine isn't wine without an alcohol content, it's fermented fruit, popular because it would last longer as well as the little buzz. You don't have to be a full time boozer to enjoy alcohol, and if you do it with wine you'll die faster and more misreably.
Moderation folks. Too much religion is definitely bad for you.
So these guys' argument is, basically, that the "wine" Jesus created was more like shipboard grog -- diluted spirits designed to preserve water from spoiling.
While there may be a grain of truth in the existence of this practice, these guys' main beef seems to be that they hate, hate, hate alcohol intoxication and will go to any length to "prove" that Jesus hates it too.
Hmmm ... maybe these guys are Mormons....
He is right about dilution of wine with water, which was almost universal across the Mediterranean 2000 years ago,since the water was too often not safe to drink.
Since the "bloom" on grapes is made up of wild yeasts, it is not possible to produce non-alcoholic grape juice by crushing grapes and storing the juice since fermentation starts almost immediately. These yeasts generally do not contain many Saccharomyces cerevisiae cells, but if it is present it takes over fermentation when the wild yeasts are killed off by increasing alcohol concentration - generally less than 5%.
The only way a non-alcoholic juice can be made and kept is to sterilise the grape juice immediately after crushing. This would have been practically impossible in ancient times.
Consistent use of particular yeast cultures for wine over some centuries has resulted in varieties of S. cerevisiae (and two or three other yeasts) which can tolerate higher alcohol contents. So many modern wines have a somewhat higher alcohol content than those made a few centuries ago. Typical medium quality Australian wines contain 10 to 15% alcohol, while recently used older cultures would top out at 12 to 13% alcohol.
The insistence on non-alcoholic drinks has only been practically possible since water supplies became safe in the 19th century. Prior to that, the "temperance" movement would have been seen as suicidal.
@ rainbow lizard
You don't have to yell at anyone. FSTDT is a humour site.
Of course sometimes the stupid is so appalling that we have to go on record refuting it. If you must, feel free.
Sometimes it's just not worth responding.
"non-alcoholic wine" is called GRAPE JUICE.
Mixing water with wine was virtually universal at the time but if they had meant grape juice, they would have said grape juice.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
To post a comment, you'll need to Sign in or Register . Making an account also allows you to claim credit for submitting quotes, and to vote on quotes and comments. You don't even need to give us your email address.
