[A response to a post about children's inability to give informed consent to sex with an adult]
A child, like any adult who is on the road to sexual self - actualisation does not need to be informed. We become informed through learning and we learn best as children.
Nor does a child have any innate need to consent. Without these morally complicating ideas that surround what is in fact a very simple and innately driven act at all levels, the notion of robotic contractual consent becomes as ludicrous as asking someone you know very well whether you can invade their 'personal space' to embrace them, or requiring a solid social contract before you bathe a child.
82 comments
A child can´t vote, drink, live on its own, and, according to the age, not even eat or get dressed, let alone PROCREATE. Are you hinting that they can grant consent?, YOU´RE SICK.
Nor does a child have any innate need to consent. What on Earth, pray tell, can this possibly mean?not consent - ever seen a baby throw a tantrum). That's not the issue here. The issue isn't whether or not it can make its views known. The issue is whether or not it enjoys sex, which it doesn't. There are cases where children under the age of consent have had happy relationships with adults. But they're in the tiniest minority. And none of them have been 5 or so years old. They've all been, what, 14-16? Furthermore, none of them ever reported being raped and enjoying it.
It's like forced marriage: Supporters will be quick to point out the instances where the married are happy together, but that does not mean forced marriages are OK. Parents can make suggestions, aka arranged marriage ("there's this girl we'd like you to meet"), but the moment either of the two to be married feel the least bit pressured in any way to get married, it becomes a negative. Marriage should be solely out of love, not because your parents think you make a good couple, because family ties between the parents would be economically beneficial, or for some other bizarre reason. And it should be with 100% consent, with no negative consequences whatsoever to anyone involved if the answer is "no".
So in closing, pedophilia is an unfortunate condition (like psychopathy, it's not a decision, so I'm reluctant to call it "wrong") and pedophiles need to have their orientation corrected as soon as a dependable "cure" is discovered (not that "pray out the Sin"-style "treatment" administered by raving clergymen on whoever have qualities Jesus doesn't like, real cures).
My two cents. Pardon the side-tracking to forced marriage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia <-- Read at your own risk. You'll definitely want a bath after digging to deeply into some of the articles.
Wait, am I reading this wrong, or is this guy advocating child rape? Not from his point of view.
Everybody's been saying this already, and it's not like one more comment makes a difference here, but as a child sexual assault survivor, the VERY IDEAS presented are flat-out terrifying. What a disgusting pervert!
fencingmatt: WTF'ingF?!!
Consider this: a child has consentual sexual relations with an adult - this is still classed as abuse because there is a chance that the child mght suffer from psychological effects later in life. But where does that trauma come from? How does a consentual act, which the child had no problem with at the time, cause such trauma later on? It is because society views an adult having sex with a child as sick, imoral and abusive. Therefore, when the child grows up and becomes a fully fledged member of society, he naturally adopts that view too. Child 'abuse' is only bad because society says it is bad. Thus the psychological effects are caused by society rather than by the act itself. If we stopped being so obsessed with protecting children from sex, we wouldn't actually have to protect them as much! In a way, we are the bringers of our own fears!
His argument is that a child cannot consent and that that inability to consent doesn't matter, not that a raped child somehow has not been raped until I tell it it has.
No - we are actually arguing the same thing. We are both arguing that sex is not as important an act as society thinks it is. If society saw sex as just another thing that happens between two people, rather than a taboo act (which for some reason is thought to take away one's innocence), it would not be damaging to children and so there would be no need for them to be informed about it. Sadly the situation doesn't seem likely to change any time soon, as such a change in society's view of sexuality would be akin to a sexual revolution!
Animals can't consent either. Some mentally retarded adults can't consent, and neither can people in comas. Is it OK to rape them too, or do you just like to make exceptions for children?
Animals can't consent either. Some mentally retarded adults can't consent, and neither can people in comas. Is it OK to rape them too, or do you just like to make exceptions for children?
So, basically, if you make the child *want* to suck you off...maybe, promise you'll get them a video game afterwards or tell them that you won't love them if they don't, then it doesn't matter that they can't consent, that they don't understand what they're doing.
So, basically, if you make the child *want* to suck you off...maybe, promise you'll get them a video game afterwards or tell them that you won't love them if they don't, then it doesn't matter that they can't consent, that they don't understand what they're doing. Believe me...a child can "consent" but not really know what they are doing.
Of course they can, no one is denying that.
You're a moron. =/
That's right, fencingmatt. It isn't a simple matter of a child's anatomy being too small to accomodate an adult's, or a child having a less-developed brain, or a child's not being emotionally mature enough, or the fact that we teach children to trust the adults in their life to not harm them. It isn't even the fact that any full-grown person who wants to have sex with a child is a sick fuck who is attracted to children because s/he him/erself was molested by another sick fuck, or because s/he just can't handle dealing with grown-ups, who aren't so easily manipulated. No, it's only because we don't raise our kids to think sex with adults is OK that they cannot consent and rape hurts them.
Nobody's buying what you're selling. Seriously, it's not too hard to understand. Just because one person got sick of arguing with you and decided to insult you instead in no way means that you win or you are more intelligent. Get it now, you sick fuck?
Fencingmatt: The only reason those problems exist is because of society.
So basically if you got raped... and weren't infected with HIV or impregnated, or otherwise injured badly...
You got no frigging problem according to this guy!!
Because it is clearly society that is creating all these problems for you. Granted, obviously raping someone is "never a nice thing" but is that a reason to be depressed? Why, look at little girls in Africa or other places where sex is a taboo subject, there is no sex ed. AT ALL and girls are sometimes expected to let the adults around them abuse them... are THEY unhappy, unhealthy, suicidal and depressed? Well, are they?? (I'm seriously asking you here, I'm an armchair psycholgist and have no goddamn clue what I'm talking about, see...)
You're a moron. =/
Couldn't have said it better myself.
=/
So basically if you got raped... and weren't infected with HIV or impregnated, or otherwise injured badly...
Hang on a minute. Am I talking about rape? No, I am talking about consentual sex here. There's a difference, unless of course you think that children can't consent.
Because it is clearly society that is creating all these problems for you. Granted, obviously raping someone is "never a nice thing" but is that a reason to be depressed? Why, look at little girls in Africa or other places where sex is a taboo subject, there is no sex ed. AT ALL and girls are sometimes expected to let the adults around them abuse them... are THEY unhappy, unhealthy, suicidal and depressed? Well, are they?? (I'm seriously asking you here, I'm an armchair psycholgist and have no goddamn clue what I'm talking about, see...)
Well I don't have a clue about girls in Africa either but I do strongly believe that the psychological problems that are associated with having sex at a young age are greatly exacerbated by society. You don't have to be mature to enjoy sex but you do have to be mature to cope with the pressures our society attatches to it, which I think is a shame.
Yes, we think children can't consent. That was part and parcel of the original argument: "Nor does a child have any innate need to consent." I took issue with that and we've been going round and round ever since. That is my main point, and you haven't addressed it at all. You just keep saying that if society didn't tell the kid it was hurt and shamed that it wouldn't be. Even if I thought that was true, I wouldn't care. It would still be wrong to take advantage of a being that can't consent.
fencingmatt: Hang on a minute. Am I talking about rape? No, I am talking about consentual sex here.
Um, no, you said that children wo were pressured into doing something "need not suffer any long term psychological problems because of it".
Well I don't have a clue [...] but I do strongly believe [...]
There's your problem.
Yes, we think children can't consent. That was part and parcel of the original argument: "Nor does a child have any innate need to consent." I took issue with that and we've been going round and round ever since. That is my main point, and you haven't addressed it at all. You just keep saying that if society didn't tell the kid it was hurt and shamed that it wouldn't be. Even if I thought that was true, I wouldn't care. It would still be wrong to take advantage of a being that can't consent. Um, no, you said that children wo were pressured into doing something "need not suffer any long term psychological problems because of it".
Not quite. I said that children can be manipulated into sex and not suffer any negative effects. Being manipulated and being forced are two different things. Forcing someone to have sex with you is rape, whereas men manipulate women into sex all the time. If they consent then they aren't being forced. Even if you think that children can't give informed consent, they can at least say yes and, therefore, they are not being physically forced.
fencingmatt:
Also, and this is being slightly overlooked, adult cock in a child's dry hole is going to cause pain and ripping. You're just saying what's convenient to you and you don't even have a clue as to what you're talking about.
You think it's convenient to me to be insulted like this? How is it convenient? If I were a paedophile then, yes, I might be saying this out of convenience, trying to convince myself that having sex with children is ok. But I am not a paedophile so there is nothing convenient about it whatsoever.
I'm saying that you are pulling arguments out of your ass because you want to be right. People wanting to be right in a discussion no matter whether their stance makes sense or not is a common phenomenon, see this whole fricking page for reference. The fact that you have repeatedly called everyone "ignorant" (even though you still haven't denied that you yourself don't actually know very much about the psyche of abuse survivors) makes me assume that maybe you just like to sound important, or think it's cool to have a "different" opinion...? Hell, can I read your mind?
I'm saying that you are pulling arguments out of your ass because you want to be right. People wanting to be right in a discussion no matter whether their stance makes sense or not is a common phenomenon, see this whole fricking page for reference. The fact that you have repeatedly called everyone "ignorant" (even though you still haven't denied that you yourself don't actually know very much about the psyche of abuse survivors) makes me assume that maybe you just like to sound important, or think it's cool to have a "different" opinion...? Hell, can I read your mind?
I highly suggest that no one try reading the rest of that post. He later gives this vomit-inducing gem (in response to "I used the term "pedophile rapist" to denote a predator who preys upon children and since any sex with a child is ipso facto rape...well, the shoe fits."):
Age-of-consent laws are in place for a reason. A well-adjusted adult should not even look upon a child as a sexual object. Just because there is a minority of children who seem older (mentally or emotionally) than their physical age, and they can and do consent, does not mean it is right. It can't be one law for some and another for everyone else. You can't have it both ways. Illegal under whatever age the country has imposed applies to everyone . Also, there are a lot of unconsenting victims, and making adult/child relationships legal on the grounds that the child consented would open the floodgates to pedophiles who want to harm, and use the law to protect themselves from justice.
So I guess an adult woman doesn't need to consent either. You fundies all claim that "she's asking for it" whenever a brute rapes her, so I guess all women and children should just lay back and let those predators get on with it. It should be just like the good old days, where raping a woman was akin to a marriage proposal, women who couldn't be heard screaming for help were asking for it, children could be stoned to death for talking back to their parents, and they could be married off to men old enough to be their fathers as young as 9.
You are a repulsive, abhorrent monster. For the love of all humanity, drop dead.
XD at matts pathetic Pedo apologist argument. "Its not the adult raping a small child that causes the harm, its you all thinking its a bad thing!" And yes it is rape you twit, anyone whos spent 20 minutes with a kid under ten can tell you they arent mature enough to understand sex. Same way they arent mature enough to understand how to drive.
Fencingmatt: Not giving consent, and not giving informed consent are exactly the same. You say that men manipulate women into having sex all the time, what do you mean by manipulate? Do you mean doing things to make yourself seem more attractive? Do you mean lying about some part of your background to make them want to sleep with you?
If your answer was yes, then that is not an accurate comparison. Manipulating a child into having sex with you is more similar to convincing a woman to take sleeping pills or otherwise become unconscious, and then having sex with her before she wakes up without ever having told her in advance that you would do so.
The difference between a child and an adult is that a child cannot understand what sex is or why someone would want to do it. They might intellectually know that it is the process of reproduction (I did) but before puberty, and the ability to experience sexual desire, one cannot truly understand sex, and therefore cannot consent to it.
A child's mind does not have a developed understanding of the hormonal/emotional urges that drive a person to want sex, and knows nothing about stimulation, ejaculations, orgasms, or sexual satisfaction. The reason for this is because a child does not feel these things! It is absolutely wrong to use a child for something from which the child can not benefit, and which the child does not understand.
When I first started to get "urges" in my teens, I thought I was going insane... but it made a lot of things I'd read (or heard) about make sense!
Fuck you, fuck your fundie bullshit, and fuck everything you stand for. Fuck your clothes, fuck your penis, fuck your vagina, fuck whatever shitty parts you have. Fuck your face. Fuck your body. Fuck your stupid computer. Fuck everything you have, inside your body or outside your body. May you be punched repeatedly in the face until you start bleeding from your eyes, you sick, sick fuck. May you then go and jump off Pikes Peak. You are one of the stupidest, sickest people that has ever existed, and nothing you say or do from this point on will change that. Go fuck yourself, you stupid prick. You're worthless, Mr. Kid-Rape Apologist.
I find it sad that, because most reasonable pedophiles don't publicly admit that they're pedophiles, psychos who actually approve of having sex with kids make all of the nice pedophiles who just look at fictional loli seem nonexistent. Hopefully someday, people will realize there's a difference between people like N.A.M.B.L.A & people who play as a barely clothed little girl in Dragon's Dogma.
To be clear, when I say pedophile, I don't mean someone who has sex with kids. I mean someone who thinks kids are hot but doesn't do anything sexual to them. You know how stable guys can see a hot woman & know that she's never gonna have sex with 'em & they don't have any kind of urge to rape her because stable people aren't rapists? There are plenty of pedophiles (if I'm using that term right) who are like that. They know that kids are never gonna have sex with 'em but they accept it & either remain virgins or have sex with adults.
Why don't you have a seat over there, the cops are waiting for you outside.
I'm Mark Poe from FSTDT, and this is to mock a predator.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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