I was recently having a "Discussion" with a catholic, actually, it was more of a debate. They actually believe that they aren't praying to Mary (though, that is what it really is), they believe that they are praying THROUGH Mary, and that Jesus has to listen to her, as he has to respect the commandment about honoring your father and mother. I tried every piece of scripture I could think of, and common sense with this person, and could not get her to see the light of day on the issue. They just can't see that they are praying to someone other than God, and they can't see that it is wrong. So deep is the indoctrination, that they seem to be blind to the truth. I ended up coming to the conclusion that the only thing left that I could do for this person is to pray. No matter what I presented to her, she responded with the catholics stance on that verse, not reading it, and seeing it for what it is. It was like arguing with a brick wall.
[Emphasis added]
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I was recently having a "Discussion" with a Protestant, actually, it was more of a debate. They actually believe that they aren't praying to Paul (though, that is what it really is), they believe that they are praying THROUGH Paul, and that Jesus has to listen to him. I tried every piece of scripture I could think of, and common sense with this person, and could not get her to see the light of day on the issue. They just can't see that they are praying to someone other than God, and they can't see that it is wrong. So deep is the indoctrination, that they seem to be blind to the truth. I ended up coming to the conclusion that the only thing left that I could do for this person is to pray. No matter what I presented to her, she responded with the Protestants' stance on that verse, not reading it, and seeing it for what it is. It was like arguing with a brick wall.
Fixed.
"So deep is the indoctrination, that they seem to be blind to the truth. "
You seem to be blind from the reflection of the shiny mirror.
It was like arguing with a brick wall.
Yeah, I know exactly how you feel, Magog. It's frustrating, isn't it?
@#1152848
Except that to people like Magog, Jesus is who they pray through to get to God. Apparently it's ok to have a man who is claimed to be God ask God to do you a favor, but not ok to ask the same man's mom to ask him.
Irony, thy name is Rapture Ready.
Praying to Mary makes perfect sense. I mean, God owes her a few favors.
"And the lord spoke unto Mary saying 'Don't worry baby, I'll pull out.'"
They actually believe that they aren't praying to Mary
So when they say "holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners", who are they asking her to pray to? Herself?
Catholics don't pray to Mary, although some of the shameless groveling to her in the Middle Ages might have sounded like it (e.g., see the "O Intemerata"). Catholics believe in intersession (the idea that one person can pray for another) and invocation (the idea that one can ask someone to pray for them). So do most Christians. Otherwise, what would be the point of a pastor asking ("invoking") the congregation to pray ("intercede") for a sick member?
Where Catholics part company with a lot of Protestants is in believing that a dead person who is (presumably) in heaven, such as Mary, can be invoked to intercede. Martin Luther was opposed to invoking of the dead saints, because it was a source of abuse by the Catholic Church; but he really didn't have any more support for his opinion than the Catholic Church had for theirs.
I read the one from some total tosser on that site witnessing to his wife's recently bereft devout RC grandmother - talk of coffin-chasing.
A quick hard vicious blow to the jaw would be the correct response rather than trying to break someone's current faith at such a time. Such cruelty is par for these people whose self-righteousness is breathtaking but only too believable.
CUNTS!
> I tried every piece of scripture I could think of, and common sense with this person, and could not get her to see the light of day <
Wow. Used two completely opposite tactics and it still didn't work.
You should have reminded her that Mary was a dirty whore, who allowed God to get her pregnant out of wedlock. She's lucky if God, who as it turns out is really her son, is even willing to forgive her child molesting ass at all. She's certainly in no position to be praying for anyone. You'd be just as well off getting a fag, or a colored person to pray for you too. </poe>
As somebody who was raised Catholic I can confirm that they do, indeed, pray to Mary, and I never heard any rationalistions about praying THROUGH Mary either.
Yeah. Catholics are somewhat quirky in their approach to abandoning their mental wherewithal. They could take a few tips from their friends in lunacy. For example, they could cut down by a good half their overbearing Marian addiction and start leavening it by engaging in trumpet-fanfare and sky-hovering concerns. They could formulate plans for when the Great Whooshfest takes place, which, as we all know, is going to be soon. They could be become engrossed in both the giving and receiving of persecution, but, the only downside, they may have to give up some of their abusive rites and rituals, specially those concerning children.
Well, aren't you doing the same, Praying to Jesus in hopes he takes your request to his daddy?
As for arguing with brick wall, I would suggest you look in a mirror.
If you think about it, pretty much all Christians are praying to a cross, which is idolatry by your own standards. Now, don't start that "we are praying through it" bullshit with me, okay?
"They just can't see that they are praying to someone other than God, and they can't see that it is wrong."
You mean how fundamentalist Christians always pray to Jesus?
Yes, Catholics do pray to Mary, but it's no more crazy than Protestants worshiping Jesus more than God.
@ CailinBan
Not so sure of your position. There is the Catholic Hymn, 'Hail Queen of heaven', in which there is the line: '...we sinners make our prayers through thee. Remind thy son that he has paid the price of our iniquity...'
the point, however, is that Catholics, as I understand it invoke Mary's intercession on their behalf, on the basis that Jesus heard her request at Cana that the young couple should not be embarrassed by the lack of wine... The rationalisation of this that that if Jesus heard her request then, she, still his mother, will surely be able to present the prayers of believers more cogently to her son in heaven.
This has nothing to do with believing that Mary has special powers. Catholics, who know their religion, are quick to point out that although mary may intercede, it is no more than that. She does not have the final say in the matter. Again, it suits some to cherry pick, or to ignore the lesson that is clear from the Cana wedding. Mary has influence over her son. If this is not so in the afterlife, then nothing can be extrapolated with any certainty from the scriptures - not that anything can, anyway.
How bizarre.
"They just can't see that they are praying to someone other than God, and they can't see that it is wrong. So deep is the indoctrination, that they seem to be blind to the truth. I ended up coming to the conclusion that the only thing left that I could do for this person is to pray. No matter what I presented to her, she responded with the catholics stance on that verse, not reading it, and seeing it for what it is. It was like arguing with a brick wall."
And yet, so many of you lot on Ruptured Retards are virtually in a circlejerk, when it comes to declaring your support for (P)Rick Rantsorbum, because he's all for 'Conservative Values', and he's pro-Life.
When right-wing Fundamental ist Christian Protestants are reduced to kissing the arse of a Catholic , just to try and get rid of Obama, it shows how far they've fallen, certainly in terms of their principles; think that Popery is of the Devil himself, but someone who eats, sleeps & breathes such is worthy of your support, RR? Nope, no hypocrisy on your part, nosiree! [/hyper-sarcasm]
Further conclusive proof of what I've always said: Hypocrisy. it's hardwired into the DNA of the Religious Right.
But you were really responsive to her arguments, right? No brick wall on your part at all!
You actually believe that you are doing something productive, when you are begging your imaginary friend for help.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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