Jason Lisle #fundie

Jason Lisle #fundie jasonlisle.com

You need to keep in mind that death is not the same thing as annihilation. God has never destroyed/annihilated any person He created. People are God’s creation and thus belong to Him. It is His moral right to take them when He deems fit. Now you ask why would God take a baby? Of course God does not answer to you; He is not obliged to tell you His reason, but He always has one because He is ultimately moral. We could speculate. One reason might be that God knows the future that the child would have had in this world, one leading perhaps to great wickedness that God has mercifully decided not to unleash on the world, nor the greater eternal torment for the child as a result of such wickedness. You may not emotionally like the way God rules His universe, but there is nothing illogical or immoral about it as you had claimed. You are not in a position to evaluate whether God had sufficient moral reasons for His actions because (1) you are wicked not righteous, and thus your view of morality is necessarily distorted, (2) you cannot see the “big picture” – only God has all knowledge, and (3) you have no basis for any sort of objective morality apart from God by which you could judge Him

41 comments

old comment by anothga

One reason might be that God knows the future that the child would have had in this world, one leading perhaps to great wickedness...
Where was He when Hitler was born? Because, if God kills newborns for they're going to do in future, she should have killed Hitler too. And doesn't this go against the free will argument? Necause A) God is killing a newborn for what he or she will do in future by his or her free will, and B) if newborn *will* do that in the future, he or she is destined to do that, therefor, there is no free will.

...you are wicked not righteous, and thus your view of morality is necessarily distorted...
This argument is contradictory. It would mean that your view of morality too is distorted, so why should we believe you that God's moral is good and that our moral is bad? If our moral is distorted, we cannot assume for certain what is actually good and what is actually bad, therefor, God's moral might actually be wrong and our moral might actually be good. What ground do you have to say that God's moral is good if your moral, though which you analyze God's, is flawed?

old comment by UHM

And there is just one reason why many people deconvert. While children have no reason not to believe this fairy tale, for adults any leader has to justify himself. So the question come to mind, why did this infant die but Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot got to live and kill so many? The problem isn't in the human, it lies deep within the hypothesis itself. We humans desperately try to explain the world around us to comfort ourselves with the idea that we have some control, ironicly part of most monotheistic mythologies is the idea of complete powerlessness for complete safety from randomness. If you have a omnipresent omnipotent god that loves you, you may not understand the world or him/her/it but like a lover falling for somebody with them, you believe that they only have the best in mind for you. And that worked for a long time, but today, people have less of a problem accepting their powerlessness in an evermore connected society and world, randomness isn't that scary any more, so your god isn't that comforting anymore. For some he looks more a more vile, vicious and uncaring everyday? So the people ask a question that is older than your religion: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" (- Epicurus)
You say we have no right to ask, I say he has no right to withold an answer. And we have asked, since before your messiah was born. And nobody ever really answered, so the only logical conclusion is that there is no god.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"You need to keep in mind that death is not the same thing as annihilation. God has never destroyed/annihilated any person He created."

You need to keep in mind the fact that you clearly have never actually read your Bible; actually read it, as per Isaac Asimov*, and with a critical & questioning, nay, cynical eye, as I did in my youth.

And the fact that I have, means that I can annihilate your entire argument (and not on this matter, but all your 'beliefs' as a result), o Jase LIEsle, and with just two words:

Lot's wife.

1- Your 'God' - with all his supposed 'Omniscience - clearly didn't know that I would say that, otherwise he would have said so - verbatim - in his 'Word': Revelation 22:20: 'And lo! For many centuries later, a hyper-smartarse who goeth by the moniker of 'Anon-e-moose' would completely fuck up the 'faith' of one (if not ALL) of his believers, and he was greatly smug, superior, and holier-than-thou, for ever and ever RAmen'.

2- ?????

3- PROPHET!

Here endeth the lesson. >:D

*- 'Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for Atheism ever conceived.'

-Isaac Asimov

old comment by

God has never destroyed/annihilated any person He created.

So, it will be unending torment... no way out at all. And you claim this is MORAL?!?

He is ultimately moral.

Yep... no way he has ever changed what is moral, right? I mean, you still avoid eating pork, right? No shellfish for you either... Mixed-blend clothing? Bet you ask every female if they are on their period or not so you can avoid touching them for a least a week afterwards, right? Bet you think all those are no longer valid, right?

Well done, you've just shown that God's morals change...

you have no basis for any sort of objective morality apart from God

Oh, so all those things are STILL valid then...? No? Then that "objective" morality is SUBJECT to God's whim... making it a fucking SUBJECTIVE morality.

by which you could judge Him

Actually, if there is any kind of Objective morality, then we have something we can judge him by... and if you dare say that God isn't subject to those morals, then you have just declared God to be IMMORAL in the extreme. But then, you've already admitted that there isn't an objective morality anyway, so God has nothing by which he can judge US!

And never a problem when "God's answers" given by men are found to be lacking. And not a problem to justify all evil on it, claiming it's good, instead of trying to do something to improve society. Jesus would apparently disagree himself. In the stories, he debated scripture, disagreed with orthodoxy, taught to love and feed the poor, that wealth on Earth may mean lack of treasure in heaven and inability to attain it, to stop those making money out of faith, to heal the diseased, etc. Are you really a Christian anyway? For me it's very doubtful after reading this. https://fstdt.com/KM85

In relation to Christian doctrines, some consider the "second death" to be annihiliation including of the soul. It is less incompatible with the idea of a righteous loving deity than eternal torment, especially if it's a default destination for failing to see any evidence of his existence, or refusing to follow unacceptable orders of some stupid mean men, trying to compel them by citing human scripture.

Meanwhile, the best explanation for the human condition, suffering and events that we can't control and are tragic, is still the lack of a deity to prevent them and the lack of an initial divine plan, the lack of special creation... This explanation is compatible with reality and everything, except the wishthinking, claims and delusions of some people.

When little in school, near Christmas season, a Jehovah's Witness mother visited school to make sure to find and segregate the JW children in a special separate classroom, when other kids went to watch a movie together in the gymnasium.

I already knew the JW stance about Christmas and found that intrusive, shameful and unjust. I didn't want to be in a boring room listening again to why Christmas was pagan instead of enjoying the film with the others. I also felt like a freak that somebody came to punish in front of the others. So I managed for the lady to miss me and I followed the others and watched the movie.

When back home, my mom said that the "sister" called her saying she didn't find me. I lied and said that I was in the room with the others. I felt bad at the moment and lied out of fear, but at the same time, was proud to have seen the film even if it wasn't a particularly awesome one.

Isn't it obvious that there was some kind of injustice at play, that even a child could perceive? Or should we speculate that my dissent was inspired by the devil or by God? Unnecessary. Why this situation where what is embraced by some Christians is also demonized by others anyway? A good answer is that humans do what they want out of the scriptures other humans wrote.

Another good answer is that high control cults are problematic. It does all it can to distinguish itself from other Christian denominations: no voting, no smoking, no trinity, no cross, no hell, an earthly paradise, its special NWT Bible translation, no Christmas, no Halloween, no birthdays, no evolution... and constant flow of world demonization, guilt tripping, fear mongering, biology denial, propaganda. Shunning ex-members and other tactics to keep members captive. An anti-education stance, you should dedicate your life and being a slave to the cult is the ideal. And overzealous moms like the above, wanting to enforce and further that alienation. Despite the fact that it's a patriarchy where women have less rights. I'm really glad to be out of that.

This also means that I can put your nonsense in perspective and just say: no. Your ideology tells me that I should swallow injustice and never do anything about it, that it somehow could be God's will. I know that it's false and that we must do what's necessary to preserve and acquire our rights when needed. It's also the role of society to preserve rights and safety, provide opportunities, etc.

There were many good comments on this thread including some quotes by ancient philosophers. I've saved down some as well as the thread. It's important to preserve knowledge against obscurantism...