I have found that analytical people (like me) can raise a pretty high wall against the truth of the Lord’s Word.
44 comments
Good point. When you put it like that it does give me pause for thought. It seems far more plausible that an invisible entity with a beard grabbed some dust from His newly magicked world and ...er... breathed life into it and it turned into a man. What a loving thing to do.
Love His night-time fairy lights by the way. What a nice touch. It's all starting to make sense now.
Hurry up with that gospel message, I'm feeling all converty. Supernaturalism here I come ...er soon.
"Therefore the only evolutionary conditions that would allow proteins to form would destroy them. "
Except for the experiments with protienoid microspheres where they existed quite happily under UV light. You fail analytically.
http://ncse.com/creationism/analysis/excursion-chapter-1-origin-life
Except it is impossible for a universe creating god to form out of nothing in the absence of light, so the conditions needed to form a god didn't exist until after said god created light.
Hmm, let's see, the amino acids first formed a rudimentary form of algae which began to utilize the gasses in the atmosphere, processing them and expelling oxygen, much in the same way that algae and plants do today....after a long period of time, the oxygen levels were such that other life forms were able to evolve to utilize the oxygen in the air.
Oh look at that, the supposed "crack" you tried to put into the "wall" never materialized.
So... it makes more sense that some magical, all-powerful being just poofed the universe into existence, then made people out of dirt even though he knew that he'd end up hating a lot of them for being gay or just not believing in him?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the ocean bottom is pretty well protected from UV light by all that water. Also, no, there was no oxygen before there were plants to produce it because oxygen is an unstable element.
"It requires a huge amount of faith to believe that this impossible situation would allow proteins to form. And even more faith to get random proteins to form cell structures and magnitudes more for these to form life. "
Yes, a huge amout of faith. Or liquid water. Whatever.
Wow! I wonder why AtroposHeart's "findings" have yet to be published in a scientific journal? I mean, he DOES have an analytical mind, after all.
P.S. - AtroposHeart... I don't think the word analytical means what you think it means.
You still haven't proved your proposition is the correct one. Even if evolution was found to be fatally flawed, and this would be done by scientists not fundies, it would still not validate Creationism since it has zero scientific evidence in its favour.
Water filters out UV light, you idiot. There was lots of water on Earth at the time. Besides, what does any of that have to do with evolution? Evolution makes no claims about how life began.
Later on in the thread, another raptard recommends giving the friend a Chick tract. Like that's going to convince anyone with even a passing knowledge of evolution.
With no ozone there is ultraviolet light bombarding the earth’s surface destroying anything that resembles proteins.
But no one thinks abiogenesis happened at the earth' surface. Little UV penetrates more than a dozen yards into the ocean.
I'm a little rusty, but I believe the old rule of thumb was it takes 1 inch of water to block 100% of UV light.
So... umm... primordial soup sounds right and doesn't take any faith, other than faith in my memory skills.
Hilarious. Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of the first organisms, that is abiogenesis. Plus, most scientists think that the first molecules formed in the oceans, which has anoxic zones, and not the surface. Do your research, and next time get your facts straight before you start blathering.
Even if they find life had to have started on the surface, there are places on the surface where light never reaches. Caves, for example.
@ Mechanical Engineer
No, it's definitely much deeper than that. A lot depends on the water clarity and chemistry, but 90% of the UV light is lost within 20 feet in ocean water.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/UVB/uvb_radiation3.php
Yes, your hypothesis that an invisible man waved a magic wand and created life is so very plausible. Now instead of bellyaching about how much you hate the idea of abiogenesis, how about providing some answers. Just once I'd like to see these Creationist nutbags explain the biochemical process that Yahweh used to turn mud into a sentient being. Also the processs he used to turn a male rib into a fully formed human female. Oh that's right, they don't explain anything because they believe in magic.
The love of God & gospel message soon follow.
Which in turn are followed by hypocrisy, guilt, bigotry, intolerance, hate, envy, superficiality, egotism, gullibility. and loss of self-respect.
Gotcha. So all we have to do is believe in the much more likely scenario that a deity created everything in 6 days, then manifested himself as a man and sacrificed himself to save us from an eternal punishment he created but only if we believe in him and do what his earthly representatives say.
The initial oxygen was mostly bonded to carbon (CO2), hydrogen(H2O)or to the hot minerals when the earth was forming, that's why most of the earth's crust is magnesium silicate (MgSiO3), ferrous oxide (rusty iron, FeO), aluminum oxide (Al2O3) or silicon dioxide (SiO2).
Only after the emergence of blue green algae did oxygen levels return to teh levels we enjoy today.
This depends on teh fallacy that ozone is the only molecule in existence that can block ultraviolet rays. Did you ever notice that you don't get sunburnt on cloudy days? The steamy seas of early earth would have provided increased increased cloud cover and water vapor while volcanic activity would have deflected ultraviolet light with increased ash cloud output.
Early life would have started in murky, mineral rich water, akin to the black water spewing out of volcanic vents at the bottom of the ocean.
There are many places UV light would have no effect on pre-life chemical synthesis.
I have to give you credit: you actually know something about science. You aren't nearly as stupid as most people on here.
I'm sure you're wrong, though I myself don't know enough to say where the error in your reasoning lies. The reason I know you're wrong is that if you actually could disprove existing scientific theories, you would have published this information in a scientific journal, whereupon you would be hailed as a revolutionary scientific visionary. Instead you peddle your religion. Speaks volumes.
Oh, so THAT'S why God created plants before He created the sun, or even the distinction between day and night (on the fourth "day", when he did the sun-moon thing). This must be the sophisticated theology I keep hearing about. I can't wait to hear how the proteins that formed afterward became fish and birds, then domesticated animals, then wild animals before He finally got around to creating a man out of dirt.
You're right, we can't have ozone without oxygen. Here's the thing, oxygen is an insanely unstable element, it likes to bond with as many possible things as it can. That's why it's so good for starting fires. Now all of the oxygen on Earth that existed prior to abiogenesis was in either the form of water, carbon dioxide or ozone, those are all forms that oxygen really likes to become left to it's own devices. So there was oxygen on Earth before life, there was just no free oxygen, it was bound up in either of those molecules.
This is why abiogenesis theory posits that the first life forms were autotrophes, like plants. They took in carbon dioxide and breathed out oxygen. When the amount of free floating oxygen in the atmosphere exploded cells evolved to take advantage of it, and the first heterotrophes where born.
Sorry, there is nothing in your rant that scientists haven't already thought of, and accounted for.
A crack in the wall of analytical thinking?
I'm no expert, but wasn't the atmosphere pretty void of oxygen at first, and then there came an explosion of oxygen and 95% of all life died out.
An analytical person like you ought to know that Evolution is only about diversity and adaptation of life, not the origin of life. With regards to Evolution, there might well have been a deity saying "Fiat lux" and create all life, and then jump-start evolution as a means for life to take care of itself from then on.
Creation is indeed fantastic; it doesn't explain anything whatsoever, on the contrary; it creates even more questions.
Superhuman faith?
"I believe in Stan Lee, the Writer Almighty,
Pre-med students should understand that it is impossible for amino acids to form proteins in the presence of oxygen so there must have been no oxygen in the atmosphere when the first proteins were formed.
Yes, science has shown that the pre-biotic earth had an atmosphere without oxygen. The oxygen budget had yet to be churned out by cyano-bacteria. So?
To quote wikipedia: The majority of tropospheric ozone formation occurs when nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon monoxide (CO) and volatile organic compounds (VOCs), such as xylene, react in the atmosphere in the presence of sunlight.
So no O2 is required for the production of ozone.
Since the rest of your argument is based on the falsehood that ozone production requires oxygen, you fail.
> One way to help them to hear His Word is to put a couple of plausible cracks in that wall.
Okay. Just don't complain when people ignore you.
The chances are, you'd also go in la-la-can't-hear-you mode when someone else points out a few "plausible cracks" in His Word(tm).
However, those evul evolutionists can usually find out scientific evidence why you are wrong. You, on the other hand, have a lot less wriggle room when people point the challenges in your theory.
Even if we hypothetically assume that life is the result of some sort of divine intervention, or the work of some outside intelligent agent, who is to say that such an agent was specifically the Christian god?
The ball is in your court, Christers.
An analytical mind that ignores oceans, tide pools, swamps, marshes, caves and crevices in the various ground and rocks?
Analytical suggest one has looked into things in depth, what you've done is the complete opposite. You've assumed it's impossible and invented a world where it can't occur by ignoring the many sources that existed. A typical creationist tactic.
Then ending your nonsense with the inevitable "therefor God" closer. Ignoring options again because if there were a creator why would it have to be your God and not one of the hundreds of others?
It was the ultraviolet light combined with soluble phosphate that did the trick. Polypeptides, polysaccharides, and polynucleotides are all thermodynamically unstable in water. That means that they all move in the direction of hydrolysis and depolymerization. Ultraviolet light accelerates this reaction.
However, soluble phosphate is rapidly converted to polyphosphate by ultraviolet light. Polyphosphate reacts with polypeptides, polysaccharides, and polynucleotides and water to push the reaction towards, not away from further polymerization. The constant production of polyphosphate via UV light forced the synthesis of larger and larger molecules faster than the rate of hydrolysis, driving the system away from thermodynamic equilibrium. This has been confirmed by numerous laboratory tests.
So, while what you said is basically correct in the absence of polyphosphate, there was plenty of polyphosphate to force polymerization. No supernatural explanation is required.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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