Andy Bailey #fundie

Andy Bailey #fundie gty.org

The reason why people think that God is cruel, violent, malevolent, and a tyrant is because they fail to understand their own wicked sinfulness!

To drive this point home, I want to take it to a personal level, though it might make you uncomfortable to think about.

How many of the ten commandments have you broken? All of them? Most of them? Have you ever told a lie? Have you stolen anything (regardless of the item's value)? Have you lusted after another person? Jesus said that you have committed adultery with them in your heart. Have you ever wished someone dead, or hated them? God sees you as a murderer!

How would you feel if every single one of your thoughts were revealed to the entire world? How would your friends and family feel if they knew EXACTLY what you thought about them all the time? Would you have any friends left? Would your family disown you?

How would your wife (I don't know if you are married or not, but let's say you are) feel if she knew what you were thinking every time an attractive woman walked by and you lusted after her? Would you still be married? Would you still be alive?

God knows your deepest, darkest, wicked sinful thoughts. God is showing mercy by not casting us forever into hell the very minute we sin against Him. He has given you years of life on this earth even after your first rebellion against Him, He's giving you a chance to repent and turn to Him. God is actually very merciful and kind.

God is just because He knows EVERYTHING. He will judge not only your actions, but also every one of your words, and every one of your thoughts and motives.

Sin is rebellion and treachery against God. When you finally start to get a sense of how God views sin, you realize just how merciful He has been. He sent His own Son to His death as a payment for your sin, so that you wouldn't have to go to hell.

How could you reject a God who, despite your sinfulness, loved you enough to provide a way for your sin to be paid for? People will spend an eternity in Hell for rejecting God and His sacrifice, and God will be completely just and fair in casting them there.

90 comments

old comment by SpukiKitty

Fuck you and your goatfucker Demiurge blind "GAWD"!

LONG LIVE THE OLD PAGAN WAYS OF OUR LADY & LORD DEITY! BLESSED BE!

Jesus was great but he's best seen in a Gnostic/Esoteric light.

OT Bible-God is a fascist piece of SHIT! He WILL BOW AND SUBMIT To The Mother Goddess & The Horned God (and all Non-Abrahamic Deities). Doesn't Tanackh/Bible/Quran God know that he's but a Demiurge & a minor Pagan Phoenician/Sumerian-deity/deities?

Granted, some Pagan Gods can be just as piggish as Bible-Yahweh (The Greco-Roman ones can be a spiteful, cruel load of noodle) however, not all of them are & Bible-God is a douche WITH a massive helping of PRUDERY, AUSTERITY, SELF-HATRED, NO PLEASURE, HYPOCRISY, ANTI-NATURE, ANTI-KNOWLEDGE, FASCISM, ETERNAL DAMNATION, ETC.

As far as the "Big 3" are concerned...they should be restored to their true, Pagan, Pre-Mosaic forms, but with a load of Matriarchal/Liberal influence thrown in.

NeoHebrew: The worship of The Supreme Elohim - El & Eloah, also as Yahweh & Asherah.

NeoIslam: The worship of The Supreme AL - Mother Allat & Father Allah.

NeoNazorean: ChristoGnostic worship of either the NeoHebrew or Gnostic Divinities - Elohim/Monad/Autogenes, El/Yahweh/Logos, Eloah/Asherah/Sophia, Jesus/Mary Magdalene, etc.

Atheists and Agnostics will also be honored & respected.

Eastern faiths will be reformed. Taoism will trump Confucianism. Shaktism (especially Shaktism) & Shavism will be the most popular forms of Hinduism & so on.

If Religion can't be wiped out at least give the major faiths a reboot.

As for me...MAKE MINE WICCA!

old comment by Anon-e-moose

1- You shall have no other gods before Me.

'But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.'

-Thomas Jefferson

'And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence.'

-Bertrand Russell

2- You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

I don't see any of you lot objecting to the likes of Touchdown Jesus being constructed. Nor was there a single comment by any right-wing fundie about what happened to such, or the source of the occurrence, hmmmmmmmm...?!

3- You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

'It's just as Goddamned piece of paper!'

-George Dumbya Bush, when reminded of his Constitutional responsibilities & limitations. Who was it who voted for him - twice - hmmmmm...?!

4- Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

So even the police, fire brigade, paramedics, Customs, Coastguard, US armed forces, FBI, CIA & NSA should all down tools on one day, hmmmmmm...?! And I notice there's a helluva lot of people working on a Saturday the actual Sabbath, for all you Israel-lovers out there! So I therefore have the right to stone you to death for so much as picking up your newspaper from your lawn on Saturday eh, Andy...?!

5- Honour your father and your mother.

Luke 14:26 (KJV, emphasis added)): 'If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.'

Nope, no hypocrisy there, nosiree! [/hyper-sarcasm] Your religion's existence is invalid.

6- You shall not murder.

The flood. How many women pregnant with child were drowned? Or those in Egypt who miscarried as a result of the plagues wrought upon them? Or this little titbit of Scripture? (emphasis added):

Hosea 13:16: 'Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.'

If your so-called 'God existed, he'd have been up in front of an international court before now, charged with crimes against humanity, tried (an open & shut case; the evidence of his atrocities against innocent unborn children are there for everyone to see), and immediately executed. Not only is God a murderer, he's the worst abortionist out there.

7- You shall not commit adultery

Your so-called 'God' is almost as much a player as Zeus. And worse besides. That little matter with Mary; not only was she married when one third of your 'God' - the Holy Ghost banged that piece of underage briffit & dumped his Holy Load in her - when she was already married & her husband Joseph hadn't even touched her - I also emphasise 'underage'. Yes, that's right. Mary was a child bride. So not only is God an adulterer, he's a kiddy-diddling paedophile nonce.

8- You shall not steal.

When Jesus - one third of God - performed the Miracle at the Marriage of Cana, how many wine merchants had he caused to lose profits, pray tell...? Then how many market traders were diddled out of business when the multitudes were fed; how many bakers & fishermen were denied good honest pay for their toil when some upstart turned five loaves & two fishes into a one-day free-for-all? Yeah. That's supporting businesses; Capitalism & all that jazz. 'What Would Jesus Do' indeed.

9- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

God ordering Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, then at the last second saying 'Sup, Abe; j/k, LOL'. Yeah. That's keeping to your own principles.

10- You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour

The very basis of modern Capitalism is coveting your neighbour's possessions; 'Keeping up with the Joneses', and all that jazz. Capitalism is based on that. You hate Capitalism? COMMIE!

In conclusion: I think I'm more than justified to say that I am more than infinitely superior to your so-called 'God', Andypoos.. Therefore he must bow down and worship me.

"The reason why people think that God is cruel, violent, malevolent, and a tyrant is because..."

...he fucking well is.

'The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak ... homophobic, racist, ... capriciously malevolent bully.'

-Richard Dawkins

And even if this so-called 'God' existed, what makes you think that he even has the right to have his so-called 'existence' acknowledged, never mind think we Atheists should contemplate the notion of even thinking about worshipping such a monster? You tell me.

And 'Sin' is a concept that only applies to Christians. For the rest of us...:

image

I love the smell of not only arguments - but religions - annihilated in the morning. Smells like... superiority. >:D

@Nicole

Compared to right-wing Fundamentalist Christian Dominionism, I see nothing wrong with what SpukiKitty said.

These Fundie Xtian Dominionists would do well to consider the Wiccan Rede, and what it really means:

'An it harm none, do what thou wilt.'

I see no Wiccan fundies out there.

And if - due to the harm right-wing Fundamentalist Christianity has/is doing to society - secular laws are required to curb the insanities of these Dominionists (especially via the US Constitution), nay, force these Dominonists to stop their own nefarious agenda that harms (in any way, shape or form) others not exactly like them, then there can never be enough laws, says I.

Even in word, action & thought. 'Political Correctness'. It exists for a reason. Two words: Fred Phelps.

What the WBC are allowed to think, never mind do, causes untold harm to those who have done absolutely nothing wrong to them.

old comment by JSS

Same ol' crap. God is cruel, but we are horrible and 'sinful', just as he made us, so therefore it's right for God to disembowel pregnant women and smash their babies against rocks.^{Hosea 13:16}

Truth is, God is at least partially responsible for "sin". It's a byproduct of our creation and the freewill he endowed us with (according to Christianity). If I was sawing wood, am I not responsible for the resulting sawdust? If I own a dog, and the dog mauls someone to death without my consent, am I not still responsible?

Therefore this god, made in man's image by the way, is of course just as evil (or supposedly evil) as we are, actually even more so. I don't know about you, with all my "vile" thoughts I've never actually dervived gratification at someone's eternal torture.

And this god is supposedly just. By whose standards? His own? Kim Jong Il was just by his own standards as well, and he had absolute power so he was able to promote it, just like the bible god. When it all comes down to it, biblical justice is none more than 'might equals right'.

Maybe your guilt saturated and masochistic theology would best be told to someone with less smarts or self-worth? Rationalists know better.

old comment by Smurfette Principle

If a family would disown its members for disagreeing, being frustrated, or being angry, then the problem is with the family, not the person.

Most people don't divorce their spouses for looking twice at someone else. They might be angry, they might have a talk later, but divorce is not the immediate action. Most people don't kill their spouses, either, and that you think so shows what a messed up person you are.

If your default reaction to someone doing something you dislike is "murder them," then you have sinned far more than anyone who has ever thought a lustful thought.

old comment by WWWWolf

> How would you feel if every single one of your thoughts were revealed to the entire world? How would your friends and family feel if they knew EXACTLY what you thought about them all the time? Would you have any friends left? Would your family disown you?

That concern was valid years ago. Now, just look at how people are doing in Facebook. People posting drunken photos and their mothers posting facepalmy comments.

We ought to *know* people have their human faults. Why are we still shocked about this fact, in this day and age?

> How would your wife (I don't know if you are married or not, but let's say you are) feel if she knew what you were thinking every time an attractive woman walked by and you lusted after her? Would you still be married? Would you still be alive?

I wouldn't marry a woman who didn't understand that a) people get such urges pretty much naturally and b) despite those urges, people are still capable of respect and commitment.

In other words, you say "lust bad, commitment good" and sane people say "lust good, commitment much better, lust and commitment just deliciously naughty". Guess which is healthier.

old comment by Anon

>>
How would you feel if every single one of your thoughts were revealed to the entire world? How would your friends and family feel if they knew EXACTLY what you thought about them all the time? Would you have any friends left? Would your family disown you?<<

The only concern I'd have would be some intellectual property. If I think of a really cool and valuable idea, and broadcast it to the entire world, do I still get paid?

>>How would your wife (I don't know if you are married or not, but let's say you are) feel if she knew what you were thinking every time an attractive woman walked by and you lusted after her? Would you still be married? Would you still be alive? <<

About the same. Yes. And Yes.

Your Argument Is Invalid

old comment by TB Tabby

Have I done bad things? Sure. But even my most awful deeds pale in comparison to God's. Punishing the entire human race for because a woman are a fruit? Needlessly prolonging the suffering of the Egyptians just so he can show off some more? Ordering someone to me brutally killed for a victimless crime like working on Sunday? Allowing one of his most loyal servants to lose everything and suffer horrible diseases JUST TO WIN A BET?! And the granddaddy of them all: HELL. Hell is an inherently unjust punishment, no crime, however atrocious, is infinite. Punishments are meant to serve as behavior modification, so that further wrongdoing does not occur. But if the punishment NEVER stops, then it doesn't matter how the behavior is modified. Therefore, even the most sadistic monster humanity could produce does not deserve Hell. Hell isn't punishment, it's simple revenge. Something a perfect God shouldn't want anything to do with.

And remember, your god is supposed to be all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. An all-knowing god should be able to think of a way to settle disputes without killing or damning anyone. An all-loving god should want to do this. An all-powerful god should be able to accomplish it.

Who's more evil: someone who slips up from times, but acknowledges flaws and tries to overcome them, or someone who commits atrocity after atrocity, claiming them to be just and righteous, while also claiming to be all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful?

old comment by farpadokly

Not this old way of the master bullshit again.
Once and for all, preceding a statement with "Jesus says" or "the Bible says" doesn't lend it any weight.
"How would you feel if every single one of your thoughts were revealed to the entire world?" I think the entire world would very quickly get bored. "She's got nice tits. What will I have for dinner tonight?" stuff like that. In any case, it's impossible. If you're reasonably honest with your friends and family, why would they disown you? Your wife or girlfriend DOES know what you're thinking when you look at an attractive woman. It isn't grounds for divorce, or murder.
And what was "my first rebellion against him"? Being born? And judging every one of my thoughts is going to be tricky. That's a LOT of thoughts. The vast majority of them are probably petty and inconsequential. Some of them will relate to sex, but so what?
And I've never understood the doctrine of atonement for sin. Why make impossible to keep rules that can somehow only be atoned for by a blood sacrifice? By what magic does that make all of the past and future breaches of these senseless rules null and void? By what magic does the obeisance and bowing down to ecclesiastical authorities signal to the Almighty that you have accepted this crazy mafia boss non-logic, and are therefore saved from eternal torture?
It makes no sense, Andy. Think about it.

old comment by JesusFacepalms

"Have you ever wished someone dead, or hated them? God sees you as a murderer!"

I kindly request citation for this one. I don't recall reading any Bible verses that equate hateful thoughts to murder. And besides, where I come from, that line of thought is called "Insane Troll Logic".

"How would your friends and family feel if they knew EXACTLY what you thought about them all the time? Would you have any friends left? Would your family disown you?"

You know Jack Shit about the power of family love and the closest of friendships. A real, functional family would survive everybody hearing each other's worst thoughts, because they're a family and have unconditional love for each other. Besides, in either case, good thoughts far outweigh the bad, and unlike your pathetic excuse for a God, we count the good stuff too.

"God is just because He knows EVERYTHING. He will judge not only your actions, but also every one of your words, and every one of your thoughts and motives."

Omniscience =/= Omnibenevolence. Also, good guys don't judge except to give constructive criticism.

Every other gripe I have either has or will be brought up 500 times in this comments section, so Im not bothering.

old comment by checkmate

why people think that God is cruel, violent, malevolent, and a tyrant

I for one certainly don't think God's cruel, violent, malevolent, and a tyrant. I also don't think he wears clown shoes and farts Dixie in the bathtub.

How can someone who doesn't exist be or do all those things?

On the other hand, I certainly do think that the deity portrayed in the Bible is cruel, violent, malevolent, and a tyrant.

However at the same time, according to some of the the Psalms, he can be a really cool guy, according to other Psalms he can be pretty evil.

But who cares? Since he doesn't exist, anybody can make up any goofy old crap about him.

Just call him Harvey.

old comment by Giveitaday

The reason why people think that God is cruel, violent, malevolent, and a tyrant is because they fail to understand their own wicked sinfulness!

This kind of reasoning is not unlike that of a victim of abuse, rationalizing why it's humanity's fault that they will be abused by a cruel, violent, malevolent, and tyranical deity.

To drive this point home, I want to take it to a personal level, though it might make you uncomfortable to think about.

The only people who become "uncomfortable" when thinking about this are the ones who already accept your presuppositions. Atheists do not.

How many of the ten commandments have you broken? All of them? Most of them? Have you ever told a lie? Have you stolen anything (regardless of the item's value)?

Yes, I have. Who hasn't? How many of the other 613 Mosaic laws have you broken? Why do you not adhere to them? What in the New Testament nullifies them but not the ten commandments? I can tell you why, because it's inconvenient.

Have you lusted after another person? Jesus said that you have committed adultery with them in your heart. Have you ever wished someone dead, or hated them? God sees you as a murderer!

So your perfect and loving "god" will condemn his most beloved creation for something that we all have little to no control over? Have you beg your god's forgivness for every stray thought you have had? Are you sure that you haven't missed even one? Because according to you, your god will condemn you for just about any percieved offense.

God knows your deepest, darkest, wicked sinful thoughts.

You make it sound so naughty.

God is showing mercy by not casting us forever into hell the very minute we sin against Him.

So your "god" is showing mercy for not acting like a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum because it did not get it's way?

He has given you years of life on this earth even after your first rebellion against Him, He's giving you a chance to repent and turn to Him. God is actually very merciful and kind.

According to your theology, your "god" has damnned us all for an action that not a single person on this planet had anything to do with. What in the fuck is "merciful" or "kind" about that?

old comment by Zagen30

No one is perfect, and for a deity or deities to create us as imperfect and expect us to be perfect it just insane. It'd be like creating a robot, programming it to pick up your dirty clothes, then getting angry when it picked up your dirty clothes.

An interesting question for which numerous SF authors have undoubtedly come up with many potential answers. My 5-minute pondering says we'd probably have a high tolerance for others' unpleasant thoughts, or else we'd have never learned to work together and prosper. But there I go bringing that blasphemous evolution into the argument.

If we're talking about a one-time thing, I don't believe my friends and family would be too shocked by anything I think. I mean, sure, they all have little quirks that I can find annoying, but Andy seems to think we all hate our friends and family and wish them dead. Projecting, perchance?

old comment by michael30v

"How many of the ten commandments have you broken? All of them? Most of them? Have you ever told a lie? Have you stolen anything (regardless of the item's value)? Have you lusted after another person? Jesus said that you have committed adultery with them in your heart. Have you ever wished someone dead, or hated them? God sees you as a murderer! "

Sure, everyone has! You wouldn't be human if you haven't done most of those things. It is a damn good thing that we lust after people since it is necessary for the continuation of our species. I have done all of those things yet I still haven't killed one person, let alone slaughtered millions and ordering the murder of little children and babies. Hmmmm, who has done that?

old comment by Skyknight

Canuovea: Are you sure you don't mean St. Anselm? He's the one who seems to be the main source of this particular reasoning, after all.

For those of you not in the know, Anselm's "Cur Deus Homo?" was an attempt to reason out why the Crucifixion was necessary in the first place (it would HAVE to be necessary, because otherwise it would be a hideous indignity on God's part, to stoop to even a cubic inch of mortality). Anselm's appeal partook quite a bit of feudal English ideas of honor owed to superiors--and because existence itself is directly attributable to God, he deserves infinite honor, and so absolute obedience in thought and deed alike, from humanity. Also, NO excuse is ultimately acceptable on account of his omnipotence--even if obeying him resulted in the obliteration of the Earth in some way, he could just reconstitute it as though the obliteration had never occurred. Thus, even the SLIGHTEST disobedience--the example Anselm used was not to look in a particular direction--must be regarded as an unalloyed offense. INFINITE unalloyed offense, because of God's infinitely high status. Which means humans, even collectively every human that exists, ever has existed, and ever will exist, can't pay the debt for even one of the least of sins, because it will always be finite. Unfortunately, I forget why Anselm said God effectively had no right to forgive even one of the least of sins--something along the lines of perpetrating injustice against himself (anyone else got the "Cur Deus Homo?"?).

(cont.; I don't want to get ambushed by the character limit)

old comment by Skyknight

I do at least remember that the debt must somehow be paid BY one of the criminal set. This puts God in a bind--he desperately wants to save at least SOMEONE, but the dictates of justice seem to make that contradictory. Hence, Jesus the god-man. As a human, he was qualified to make the payment on humanity's behalf, even though he never committed a sin. As a divinity, he was capable of making the infinite payment in a single stroke, by sacrificing his life in a divine transaction.

Interestingly, Anselm went on in a brief section to explain why none of the fallen angels could be redeemed. Every angel is a creature unique unto itself. No seraph race, no cherub race, no ophan race, etc., but rather each individual angel is practically a genus of a single creature (well, not Anselm's terminology, obviously, but I figure that should get the magnitude across), to a point that you CAN'T get a god-Belial, god-Azazel, god-Sallos, etc. for the purpose of salvation (and remember: because of God's omnipotence and creative action, the slightest of disobedience on their part STILL constitutes an infinite offense, and they STILL can only muster a finite amount of atonement). Although it might be telling that Anselm states early on that he believes that humanity was created expressly to replace the number of the fallen angels...

I suppose I can see how this understanding of divine reconciliation would be beloved by the pro-corporates, even among the lower and middle class. They see most everything in life in transactional terms, so why should the afterlife be any different? Although, even if from just a quick glance, it's worrying that the way Anselm puts it, you could argue that free will is inherently evil, since it only has substance in being able to diverge from someone else, even God--which, to him, is an infinite offense. I wonder what Anselm would say if you asked him if God had any sort of free will?

Andy Bailey #fundie gty.org

90 comments

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