06convert #fundie

06convert #fundie forums.catholic.com

[In a thread about "embryo adoption"]

The Church does teach that surrogacy is morally wrong. This interferes with the natural process of God's creation. A life formed in the marital act of a loving husband and wife. Anything outside of this is morally unacceptable.

Although adoption and implatation is a solution, it's not a morally justifiable solution and it doesn't seem likely the Church will accept this. The reason we don't have an answer from the Church is because it's a very complicated issue. Human beings are playing God with lives, such injustice is difficult to reach a good solution.

The injustice to these embryos is that they are frozen and the moral thing to do is remove from the frozen state, to restore their human dignity. Although this would lead to their death, death would not be the intent, only the result of the injustice they already recieved by being imorally created. They would be like martyrs. This is more likely the way it will have to be. It's difficult to understand and if the Church goes this way, they will get beat up on it.

44 comments

old comment by katie5000

>>"A life formed in the marital act of a loving husband and wife."

And, if you're an infertile couple, this means what?

>>"Anything outside of this is morally unacceptable."

So I guess that would rule out, say, adopting a kid from like, China or someplace.

>>"Although adoption and implatation is a solution, it's not a morally justifiable solution and it doesn't seem likely the Church will accept this."

Well, wouldn't it be kind of like adopting an already born child? You'd just be doing it a lot sooner.

>>"The injustice to these embryos is that they are frozen and the moral thing to do is remove from the frozen state, to restore their human dignity."

By killing them. Lovely.

>>"Although this would lead to their death, death would not be the intent, only the result of the injustice they already received by being immorally created. They would be like martyrs. This is more likely the way it will have to be."

This is just warped, coming from the pro-life crowd. Aren't you the ones who are all about "life begins at conception, therefore don't get abortions"? You're basically gonna thaw all these embryos out and abort 'em, just because they aren't growing up in some lady's womb.

Now tell me, how are these human embryos any different from the ones that grow inside a lady? They'll lead to the same thing, whether they were conceived in a womb or not. Granted, an embryo has to be in a womb and be exposed to hormones in order to turn into a human, but still. You can't say the potential is there in one instance and not the other.

Frankly, if you're pro-life, I would think you'd be for embryo adoption, since the goal is to allow the "life" to grow into a person and not get thrown away.

I also agree with Jezebel's Evil Sister, that if they're not to be implanted, then they should be used for something else like stem cells. Otherwise you're just wasting all of them, which is a lot more damming to me. (Besides, if they were created "immorally", then what the hell do you care if they're used for stem cells or not?)

tl; dr: "Omg, if it's conceived in the womb, don't touch it, but if it's not, then kill away!" I don't ever want to hear you guys lecture on abortion ever again. Hypocrites.

old comment by Vince

for the people who go on all day about embryos being human with all the rights of one, this is interesting.

I'm not going to break it down, but it seems to me you would prefer to kill a child rather than let it grow up out side of marriage... which sounds a lot like the rationality of many of these abortions you want to stop.

you basically think that if a child is the product of rape, it deserves to live, but if two loving married parents, have a surrogate birth, or artificial insemination, or whatever, then the child should be killed...

what the fuck man

you seem a little mixed up. take some time, think it over, it might take a while to accept the fact that your wrong about everything but just give it time.

old comment by Philbert McAdamia

Although this would lead to their death, death would not be the intent, only the result of the injustice they already recieved by being imorally created.

Something in this reminds of a case a few years back, here in Calif. Some scammers had convinced some rich folks to go with cryogenics for a future cure. For major buck$, of course. So they cut their heads off, placed them in a freezer in a storage facility, and let the checks come in until modern medicine should figure out how to save them. Well, some of the victims' family members dropped a dime on them, probably would rather inherit those rent checks themselves, and the cops raided the place, turned off the juice, and confiscated the frozen heads, to bury the martyrs and "restore their human dignity".
Charged with several counts of murder, amongst many and varied other charges, the perps claimed the heads were still alive and had a chance at later life until the cops meddled and killed them.
I expect the moral and legal wrangling to come to an agreeable conclusion, about the time the money runs out.

old comment by Swedish Pagan

So, husbands and wives who don't love each other can't have babies, either?

I find the Christian concept of morality harder and harder to grasp, the more I hear about it. Does God really have anything against a couple taking care of a child who has no parents? It sounds like a thing Jesus would approve of, very much indeed.

Human dignity? To a few cells, indistinguishable from ape cells, or even oak cells, I presume, at that stage? Are you nuts? Work on restoring the human dignity to fully grown, born, humans instead. Like the ones who can't get enough food or drinking water for their children, the ones born into the life of a prostitute's child, or into slavery. Four cells that could potentially become a human one day does not need any dignity, but born humans do. Asshole!

"It's difficult to understand" You're not wrong there, Bubba! My my, are you TRYING to make life complicated, or what?

old comment by Thejebusfire

A life formed in the marital act of a loving husband and wife. Anything outside of this is morally unacceptable.

What is it about a piece of paper that makes your sex life moral. My parents weren't married until after my mom was pregnant with me. Does that make their marriage "morally unacceptable"?

Human beings are playing God with lives, such injustice is difficult to reach a good solution.

We do that every single day by having sex.

The injustice to these embryos is that they are frozen and the moral thing to do is remove from the frozen state, to restore their human dignity.
But it can't be "injustice" since embryos are not people. They cannot have "human dignity" because they are not human. Kidneys get frozen too, that doesn't make it an "injustice".

Although this would lead to their death, death would not be the intent, only the result of the injustice they already recieved by being imorally created.
Or we could use them to help people who are sick and need them. Nope, helping the sick would be something that Christ would do.

They would be like martyrs.
Martyrs are people who die for their religious beliefs, not embryos.

old comment by Clown

I almost forgot. What's it with "It's wrong to play God." line?
When the first man or woman intentionaly light a fire, that was playing God. When the first human picked up a fallen berry and prevented it from growing into a plant, that was playing God. When the first man decided to kill an animal and eat and wear it's skin, that was playing god. When one of our ancestors saw the wolf slightly more responsive to his commands and said "Hey, that could be usefull.", eventually making dogs as we know them, that was playing god. Same goes for cows, sheeps, cats and horses. Chickens and other poultry? Playing god. Whole fucking agriculture is one big "playing god" with plants. Industry? Playing god. Economy? Playing god. Medicine? Playing god. Even building the simplest of houses is, by definition, playing god, since you change status quo. Every road, every bridge, every dam, every oil platform, every plane or car is playing god.

So, what's wrong with taking it to another level and play god with diseases, cures and something that has a really good chance to never become human?