Al-Fatihah #fundie

Al-Fatihah #fundie atheistforums.org

Response: When you can provide evidence of harm done in having consensul sex in marriage with a 9 year old who has reached maturity and and puberty, other than because mommy says so, then you will have a point.

68 comments

old comment by D Laurier

When you can provide evidence of a consensual (ie; not arranged) marriage between a 9 year old and an adult, we will discuss it.
Historicaly marriage was arranged between familys with little to no input from the prospective bride, who was simply a bargaining chip.
Girls did what they were told, for the good of the clan, tribe, or kingdom.
Brides seldom met their husbands untill the actual wedding.
We no longer depend on marriage to form alliances for trade and war. We have become more civilized.
You appearantly have remained stuck in the 6th century, and need to move forward or be left behind.

We too where once that backwards. We also had boys and girls becoming adults at age 10, and we had despot kings, rampant disease, ignorance, and misery. We built mud huts and stone castles.
Now we let them stay children untill 18... And we build space ships.
What do you build?

old comment by Darwin

Some 9 year-olds may be mature enough to handle it, and some 29 year-olds may not. That's why society sets a specific age, cuts out the guesswork. But seriously, 9?! As far as I know increased health means that females are entering puberty at an earlier age then years ago, but that doesn't mean that their emotional level is also advancing. In fact it might be argued that the increasing complexity of society means that the emotional component may even be delayed.

For the record I doubt that any 9 year-old would be emotionally mature enough to make such decisions, I'll only give some leeway because I'm a skeptic by nature, and willing to listen to evidence. But if you had come near my daughter when she was 9 I would have done you great physical harm. With no guilt whatsoever.

old comment by Reynardine

Jezebel's Evil Sister et al: I had a rather scholarly colleague from whom I got the link, which crashed with my phone, but other than that, I spent quite a few years among Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, and the consensus was that she was fourteen at marriage. The link in question said she was sixteen, but I myself think (based on what I know of tribal behavior) that fourteen was more likely. It was not the custom among Muslims to perform a marriage ceremony before both parties reached puberty, though it was often done as soon after as possible, so they might indeed be betrothed before one or both had done so. Currently, urban or educated people, though they still arrange marriages, usually wait until the parties have completed higher education; among die-hards, the bride might be as young as sixteen, but as with us, younger is considered hillbilly stuff.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Point: "When you can provide evidence of harm done in having consensul sex in marriage with a 9 year old who has reached maturity and and puberty, other than because mommy says so, then you will have a point."

Counterpoint: The fact that sex below the age of consent is illegal in all civilised, democratic countries based on Rule of Law. Oh, and even in countries that rely on Sharia law, I don't exactly see them condoning underage sex.

...oh, and two words completely annihilates your argument: Informed Consent.

Otherwise, your Fundamentalist Islamist doctrine is paedophilic in nature. You even admit it. Therefore nothing more needs to be said, really.

old comment by ixolite

@Reynardine:
They are lying to you. That is not the consensus at all. All sahih ahadith have Aisha married at 6 and raped at 9.

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_Age_of_Consummation

Also, the Koran allows paedophilia. Read Q 33:49 and then 65:4.

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur%27an

Why do you think is the age of a girl you can f*ck set to 9 in Iran (it was lowered after Khomeini came to power, btw)? Because that was Aisha's age when the profit raped her. Why do you think there were protests by fundies in Yemen after they tried to raise the age of consent after the 8 year old divorcee was in the press? Because everything the pedo profit did was right, so it can't be wrong to f*ck a pre-pubescent girl.

old comment by ixolite

Blank

Ok ya so he did a 9 year old but life expectancy was at most 35 soo it was pretty common. Now however it's just not cool since we have a life expectancy of at least 75 to 90 years. As for the debate about pedophilia in Islam I would tend to go to the Islamic scholars not some random wiki online, but that's just me.

imageLife expectancy was low because child mortality was high. It doesn't mean that everyone died by age 40, if you got through childhood you could live to a high age. (Mo was 53 when he raped Aisha, btw.) Even IF it were so that wouldn't make paedophilia ok. Alone for the fact that pre-pubescents can't procreate. Sex can also damage their organs and make them infertile. (Notice how Aisha never had any children.)

Would you like to know how I know you didn't even bother to check the links? [img]http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/froehlich/d010.gif[/img]

old comment by Blank

I stand corrected on the life expectancy, however the point still stands about the links. I did check it out and from their about site

<>I'm looking for information on Islam. Is this the site to get it?

Yes, if you're looking for factual information critical of Islam, this is the site to get it. If you haven't found what you're looking for, please make a request in the forum. <>

So they are openly stating they are critical to Islam, and then you have this gem

<>As a knowledge base for both Muslims and non-Muslims interested in the criticism of Islam, articles at WikiIslam are naturally not required to be NPOV ("Neutral Point of View").<>

So there is a clear bias there.

I also did some further digging and found these sources refuting you.

http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm
(Not the best, it is a .com site but it leads to the next one)

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_151_200/ayesha_age_the_myth_of__a_prover.htm
(Much better source)

The internet is a great place, but really learn how to judge sources for clear bias.

Edit: Made quote clearer and to note no I'm not a Muslim or any faith really but shit like this bugs me we let Judaism get a free pass on the Old Testament condoning marriage via rape but the same standard can't be held for Islam now.

old comment by

Not being emotionally and physically mature enough to handle the act. Can leave behind severe damage lasting a lifetime. That alone is a very good reason why having sex with kids is wrong. Now for a quick thought that would probably get me lynched if I were to say it in real life. My two cents on the debate in the comments: Yes, the so-called "good pedophiles" mentioned by Akasuna do exist. People who have the thoughts and go to great lengths to not act on their twisted desires. Ideally, the thing to do in that situation would be to get some sort of professional help and nip this problem in the bud as early as possible but how can they when everyone is seemingly out for blood the second anyone brings it up?

old comment by

A nine year old is neither mature nor is it likely they've gone through puberty. We no longer accept that children are property to be exploited and used as parents see fit. Times were different then, but we've moved the hell on and it's definitely for the better.

Until maturity, which a harder thing to grasp than most people realize as evidenced in the behavior of adults, a child easily influenced by anyone older than them and care must be taken not to shove an idea down their throats or they will parrot it without any actual understanding of it. Sex is one of those things.

If you're the type of person who confuses consent with understanding you should be kicked in the head. You could consent to a medical procedure removing your liver, but you might not understand that you need your liver to survive.

old comment by Jamaican Castle

@ixolite:

Discussion/argument aside, I do quite like the miniature Picard gif.

@OP:

If you can find a 9-year-old who's physically and mentally mature enough, we'll talk. When you can't, though, the point still stands.

Aside from that, when a minor is married to an older partner, there's the whole issue of coercion, whether explicit ("marry him, or it's the belt again") or implicit ("I should keep quiet and go along with it or it'll go badly for me"). Simply put, consent can't be valid if it's given under duress, and someone in such an imbalanced situation is generally assumed to be under duress more or less permanently.

Also, if the historical Aisha was horribly traumatized by the whole process (or, conversely, if she was bang alongside it for whatever weird reason), I sincerely doubt the people trying to cover their entire philosophy, cosmology, and history of their movement are going to spare more than a few words for it. Book's rather long enough as it is.

Al-Fatihah #fundie atheistforums.org

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