Tony Snow #fundie

Tony Snow #fundie christianitytoday.com

Ethics produces an even greater quandary. Moral laws have changed less over the millennia than the recognized laws of physics and mathematics. The ethical principles that undergird the Ten Commandments' prohibitions against stealing and murder are recognized by people in New York, New Guinea, Timbuktu, and even bin Laden's cave, while scientific theory has undergone numerous revolutions—and will continue to do so.

47 comments

old comment by Falyne

Normally I'm not overly fond of evo-psych Just So Stories, but it makes a lot of sense, given the pack animal nature of humans and our relative squishiness in the face of lions and tigers UNLESS there's a lot of us together holding spears, that our memes and genes would pretty much universally have had a great, great deal of selective pressure to not do anything that would result in group ostracism. Or getting stabbed by everyone else with spears.

Edit: Bit of a tangent, but I guess I should probably explain why 'evolutionary psychology' strikes a dissonant chord with me. I have no issue with the idea that our personalities (insofar as they have a genetic factor) and that our cultural norms would be shaped by the challenges of living as the aforementioned squishy pack apes; in fact, I think it's often a good framework for some *descriptive* and *theoretical* analysis.

The problem with evo-psych on the internets is that it is often used in gendered and borderline *prescriptive* Just So Stories, leading to statements that start with "Man the Hunter must blah blah blah" and "Woman the Gatherer is yadda yadda yadda" and end with yammering about spatial abilities... which my magical Boobies of +5 Engineering have issues with. ^_^

old comment by JonnyTruant

Um... there would be laws against stealing and murder even without your silly ten whatevers. There are some things which we all universally regard as wrong and inhibiting to the social and economic growth of society.

Scientific theory, however, is relatively new... not millennia as you seem to assume. Science itself recognizes the importance of the ability to change (or adapt) as new information is discovered. Just like social laws, if they don't adapt, they become obsolete. I'm not sure, but I don't think the Bible foretold the computer and internet and the crimes which could be committed via these mediums.

Laws and governments had to adapt to meet the changing needs. Theories have to adapt to fit new data.

Is that hard to understand?

Now go and see if you can avoid breaking the 9th commandment like a good little boy.

old comment by Falyne

@ Professor M

Oh, I agree completely that this sort of gendered evo-psych is piss-poor at anything other than as case studies of post hoc fallacies and projection.

However, the proponents of evo-psych will often *claim* that it's purely descriptive of the 'Natural Order of Things', and doesn't necessarily prescribe against, say, my being a Comp Sci Engineering major.... it just leads to the conclusion that I'm secretly hiding inner turmoil about betraying my true gatherer-cum-housewifely nature (pardon me while I laugh out loud). Unfortunately, widespread 'common sense' internalization of 'hunter vs gatherer' or 'mars vs venus' descriptive memes can lead to prescriptive pressures, especially on the young. Which sucks muchly.

old comment by Nibien

Falyne, I'm a bit confused I suppose - are you saying your major problem with evolutionary psychology is that you don't happen to fit the norms and as such you find it absurd?

Would that not be like a homosexual male saying that males have a psych that leads them to be attracted to females false because he doesn't fit the norm?

While I'd agree that using these things to force people into a mold would be harmful to society I would argue that ignoring gender development differences merely to suit what you want to be true is silly - I don't think anyone uses them to argue inferiority but it's impossible to argue against psychological differences between genders as a norm.

old comment by Falyne

Psychological differences between genders as a norm? Yes, that's hard to argue against.

The conclusion that those psychological differences are innate, nearly impossible to overcome, and that the natural order of differences between the sexes is upheld by Just So Stories regarding the origin of the human race? That's much, much easier.

There's a lot of cultural baggage associated with gender. I don't have the links at the moment, but there've been studies involving infants wearing gendered or neutral clothing that measure the reaction from infancy. Regardless of the actual gender, onlookers would compliment the pink-dressed baby's smiles, admire the blue-dressed baby's strong grip, and be confused as to how to react if the gender was neither indicated nor disclosed. From birth, boy-humans and girl-humans are treated differently in measurable ways.

The plural of anecdote is not data, but I also want to say from my own experience that the 'common knowledge' of psychological differences provides a real and effective force towards being a self-fulfilling prophecy. Implicit concepts internalized over the years, such as the norms that girls are dainty and afraid of gross things while boys will be boys and like to play catch, sum to a completely disparate developmental experience. And that's even before the explicit "no gurlz allowed on the internets LOL" messages get added in, or when those who *do* challenge gender norms get subtly or not-so-subtly treated like they're Not Normal and Weird.

Yes, there are tendencies towards physiological differences between the sexes, but psychology is a product of both physiology and socialization. My "major problem" with the evo-psych camp is that it tends to draw the line, with somewhat lacking evidence and justification, closer to nature rather than nurture, and proceeds to argue that this nature is unyielding and unchangable. Saying that the Y or X chromosomes have *no* effect on humans isn't plausible, but ignoring gender socialization differences to suit a gendered status quo is, also, silly.

Tony Snow #fundie christianitytoday.com

47 comments

Confused?