[Fundies have been arguing about whether or not Leviathan and Behemoth were dinosaurs and whether Leviathan could really breath fire.]
37 comments
So on that part of it I cannot say what it means, but when you think about that it sure makes you wonder why they armor for knights that covered them completely , and possibly to protect them from fire, or just a scalding from some chemical process.
First, knights only appeared during the dark ages, long after the first mention of biblical monsters. They're from different eras. Further, knights didn't wear plate armour until the later middle ages. And the invention of full plate armour took even longer.
Second, metal plate armour heats up really fast when exposed to a steady stream of fire such as from a dragon or similar fire breathing monster. Knights would be cooked alive in their harness. And in the case of chemical fire, it's even worse because then it seeps into every crack and chink inside their armour and burns them from the inside. This was the whole point of Greek fire as utilized by Arab land armies, who defeated knights with incendiary and explosive canisters of chemical fire, making for some of the earliest grenades in history. A clever knight would rather wear cloth or leather in such a case, which is more easily doused or removed.
Nothing is too hard for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Except, apparently, eliminating evil and suffering.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Problem_of_Evil
A God that is all-powerful would be able to prevent evil and suffering.
"Nothing is too hard for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
Except, apparently, eliminating starvation, war and disease.
"it sure makes you wonder why they armor for knights that covered them completely , and possibly to protect them from fire, or just a scalding from some chemical process."
Or maybe we could have a reality check and ask, is that armor to protect them from people with swords and maces and flails and glaives and crossbows and halberds? Also why would you use metal armor to protect someone from fire. He would just cook faster.
The Book of Job is one of the most challenging, most poetic and most thought provoking elements of the bible. And all your lot gets from it is, "look, dinosaurs."
If there is a god, it must be painfully ashamed of you.
Strangely, the thing that makes me the most angry about this is that this person has NO IDEA what technology of society and more specifically, armor was like at the time he believes his book of absolutely true and perfect knowledge was written.
Greek armor was made of bronze, were not fully encovering suits like high mideveil period platemail, but instead were usually non-interlocking fited plates worn over supple leathers. Only the wealthiest fighers had anything more than shin guards, breastplate, helmet, and shield, and then its likely that they had a shoulder or arm covering.
Even by the time of Jesus the amor of the romans was made of interlocking iron rings worn over supple leather, or a hardened leahter armor covered in iron (or very low grade steel) bands. Again this armor ended at the knees and seperate shin guards were worn.
However, for a fundy all times in the past were exactly the same. So if you need fully armored 13th century knights to fit your image of why there are no fire breathing dinosuars anymore then clearly the period of -400 B.C.E. also had all those things.
1. What Really?“ said.in a fire . Imagine the flames engulfing you and seeking every nook and gap in it, while simultaneously heating the metal itself. How is that a good thing?
...or that "Leviathan" was a rather good 1989 underwater Sci-Fi/Horror film by George P. Cosmatos, in the vein of James Cameron's "The Abyss" and John Carpenter's "The Thing".
...there can never be enough underwater Sci-Fi films/TV series. ;_;
"Nothing is too hard for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"
...except, y'know... existing .
@Doubting Thomas
'Yippee-ki-ay, motherfucker!' And as for what waiting(IQ)1 is going on about, re. 'legends from past times', 'Dark Ages'/Medieval times etc, 'Hans, bubie... I'm your white knight!'
'Come over to the coast, get together, have a few laughs!' [/sarcasm]
Why is "Die Hard" so damn quotable; almost as much as "Apocalypse Now" and "Full Metal Jacket"?!
Plate Armor =/= Hasmat suit
The reason that the plates overlapped was because the armor was not air or water tight (in fact such airtight armor would probably kill the poor knight from heat stroke). Middle Ages plate was built specifically for battle... against humans armed with pointy bits of metal. As was bronze/iron age armor (none of which matches OP's vision of plate armor).
"Let's not mock the tail thing they probably swayed them back and forth and reminded them of a cedar for both the size and the swaying."
have you ever read the Bible?? It's not a tail they're talking about... just think of something around the hips that is hard and long from time to time, and you might just get it.
"I am not pointing it out to start an argument, but to actually read those verses with a little studying behind them."
Maybe you should start by reading them...
"but when you think about that it sure makes you wonder why they armor for knights that covered them completely , and possibly to protect them from fire, or just a scalding from some chemical process."
Prince Valiant: Wow it sucks getting burned by all this dragon fire. Maybe whe should wear asbestos suits or something to protect us in battle against dragons.
Knight: Nah, I have a better idea. Let's cover ourselves in iron and steel plating.
Prince Valiant: What the fuck? Won't we just end up cooking alive inside the armor?
Knight: Well yeah, but we're fighting a dragon. We're probably toast anyway. May as well go quickly and leave him with a tasty meal.
Prince Valiant: Fhhhewww .. I just remembered that dragons are imaginary. You really scared me for a second there.
The Book of Job is one of the most challenging, most poetic and most thought provoking elements of the bible.
Well, it certainly provokes the thought that Bible God is a cruel and heartless bastard.
@ solomongrundy
The essence of The Book of Job is to answer the question "why do bad things happen if god is good?" The idea of contracting with god wasn't working out for a variety of reasons, so a new explanation was needed. Putting the literal elements of the story aside, the Book of Job posits simply that bad things happen and you are never, ever going to understand why. For people who can appreciate a complex theology, the message of Job presents a fascinating challenge to wrestle with.
For people who are afraid of, impatient with or too stupid for a complex theology, the message is "look, dinosaurs."
The best protection against dragons was running shoes.
@ Dr. Shrinker: if you're using the Book of Job as a source of spiritual nourishment, your situation is desperate.
Nothing is too hard for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Except curing cancer, stopping earthquakes and floods or actually doing anything useful.
@ Old Viking
I disagree. Job carries the message that god(s) is no guarantee that bad things will never happen to you. Ecclesiastes further adds that building up worldly wealth might provide an amusing distraction, but in the end you'll be just as dead as the poor. These are lessons that far too few modern day American religious folk take into consideration because, well, they don't feel good. Instead, they cling to feel-good fantasies about The Rapture and the prosperity gospel, notions that pre-19th century theologians would have found ridiculous, if not absolutely heretical.
At the heart of these lessons is the idea that the universe is not going to hand you meaning and fulfillment. These are things that one has to define and work out for oneself. And that is a notion I agree with wholeheartedly.
I think some of the more current dragon movies have mislead many commenters, armour or a big shield could deflect a broadcast flame. Y'see, dragons only breath fire, not Napalm or a ww2 gas mixture.
Hey, I can pretend I'm a dragon expert too!
It annoys me that people don't know what a symbol is, and how symbolism works.
I remember reading a book in elementary school that explained how a dragon could breathe fire... If memory serves, they said that a dragon would have minerals in its teeth (possibly from chewing and swallowing stones for its gizzard, I can't quite remembers) that could create sparks that would ignite flammable vapors and gases exhaled by the beast.
Of course, that book was FICTIONAL, designed as a sort of semisatiric thought experiment. But waiting1 would probably see it as superior to a university biology textbook.
It's not 100% certain that fire breathing dragons existed but, if special people are going defy gravity er...soon, they likely did.
As that brave knight of yore said, "Do you know, it could be that a fire breathing dragon will exist er...soon. I think it's time somebody invented a full suit of armor. Or, if not armor, at least give us the ability to fly."
So they invented plate armour because of the threat of dragons rather than to protect some wealthier guy in battle from a horde of peasants armed with spears, clubs, bows, etc. Well, it isn't like Leviathan is really a threat, you can just find an angel at McDonalds and bring him to your bathtub filled with hot water and stab him with swords for half an hour, plate armour be damned.
So on that part of it I cannot say what it means, but when you think about that it sure makes you wonder why they armor for knights that covered them completely
So this would date the Book of Job to somewhere about 1350 to 1550, about two thousand years after it was known to have been written.
One, breathing fire on an armored night would make him a walking barbecue. He would be much better off naked.
More to the point, don't you think armor was maybe designed to give you more time to stick pointy things in some other guy while the other guy is trying to stick pointy things in you at the same time?
Nothing is too hard for Jeebus? Really? Spend some time in a Critical Care Ward, Buba. There you'll have a real opportunity to look some of the Da Lord's choicer mistakes.
Cuz if there is a god, he's going to have to explain why he permits child cancer and a lot of other things besides.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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