I would do this to any adult who broke a rule. If they break a rule, are told they have broken that rule, are advised that there will be repercussions if they continue to break that rule, and then keep breaking that rule anyway, they should be punished. And one way to do so would be to remove some item of religious paraphernalia that's important to them. A headscarf, a turban, a yarmulke, a crucifix, whatever. Withhold it from them for as long as they continue to violate the rule, plus an added amount of time for punitive reasons. If they were not religious or did not have such paraphernalia, I would come up with something else.
If this had taken place, say, during a class at the local community college, the student was talking non-stop and disrupting the lesson, ignoring warnings to be quiet, then I would wholeheartedly support the teacher who removed the scarf.
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And then you'd rightly be fired. There are already approved punishments all the way up to having the student removed and even permanently kicked from the class. You are not one of those attention whoring "creative punishment" judges, nor are you granted special exemption from the law when dealing with someone over whom you have some measure of authority.
...assuming facts not in evidence...
OK, I'll assume some facts as well. Let's assume that the teacher knew (or should have known) that what he did was inappropriate, but did it anyway. What punishment shall we give him?
I don't see the problem here. His idea is not only pretty creative, but it could be an effective form of punishment for minor offenses without resorting to corporal punishment or overly severe methods. So it's a win-win.
The only issue is if they don't have religious articles.
@ Shepard Solus:
There are already approved punishments all the way up to having the student removed and even permanently kicked from the class.
And this should be one of those approved punishments. If it was illegal, I would not do it, but I would see no reason why it should be illegal.
@ rubber chicken:
Then I would confiscate some other item that seemed important to you, or "go nuclear" and have you permanently thrown out of my class--physically if necessary--while mocking you.
@ 2057937:
Yes...that's why it's punishment . By continuing to disrupt my class, they have disrespected me and their fellow students; they should be disrespected in turn.
Haha!When I was in school, this would have e been my get out of detention free card. Just buy up a few cheap crucifixes,wear one every day, and do my best Brer Rabbit "Oh please don't take away my crucifix!"
In my experiance, whenever the teacher decided to stoop to an even more childish option for punishment than what ever the students were doing, it backfired on them badly. In the most disciplined classes the students were always treated with respect and it worked wonders.
Also you don't want to be in national news for removing a damn headscarf or crucifix, trust me.
@2058042:
I wouldn't do this because they were different, I'd do it because they were being disruptive. If they were quiet and polite, they could wear anything they wanted.
@2058058:
It's not stealing, it's temporary confiscation. They'd get it back at the end of the class.
Shepard Solus is correct, Thanos.
(And of course Neo doesn't see the problem - even despite Shepard Solus' having pointed it out very succinctly.)
ETA: Being a teacher isn't license to act like a childish bully when students - in this case, young ones - aren't paying attention. That's what extra homeworks, trips to the principle's offer, and detentions are for - as well as what examples of positive reinforcement are designed to prevent (unless you're just dead set on proving might makes right).
Hope that if you run afoul of the law - oh, I know; that would never happen to you - that you don't fall into the hands of a judge who considers a misdemeanor to be worth your dignity...oh, hey, and perhaps he can take the ashes on the mantle until you've completed community service as well. I mean what better way to ensure you show up?
Here's the problem with this: it isn't just a religious symbol. It's an article of clothing and a symbol of modesty. It would be like taking someone's shirt off, because they wouldn't follow rules. It reeals a part of them they don't want exposed, for modesty reasons, and it's shameful to do to an adult, let alone a child.
If I were a student, and saw an adult take off a student's hijab or yarmulke, I would report their asses, after taking it from them and giving it back to the student
@Dybbuk: And I'm not saying this should be done to children. Only adults.
And if a judge did that to me, I would be fine with it. I would deserve it.
@RiJayden:
It would be like taking someone's shirt off, because they wouldn't follow rules.
I don't particularly see a problem with THAT, either. (But then again, I am an exhibitionist who would go nude in public if it was legal)
@Everyone:
Let me be clear. If I was a teacher of adults, I wouldn't do this if it was ILLEGAL, and I'll take your word that it would be. But I fail to see what's IMMORAL about it.
@Shepard:
So instead I should support the whackjobs by assigning the same importance to this item as they do?
Would it be more helpful to the adult student if I banned them from my class, giving them a failing grade and crippling their academic career?
@Thanos6:not quite possibly put someone's life at risk by acting like a sociopathic dickhole. You'd be playing with fire at the risk of someone else getting burned. Possibly with battery acid. So yes. If they can't be corrected otherwise, failing them is the better option.
@Shepard:
Pfah. As much as I hate to do so, I must concede you have a point. Although I despise having to kowtow to some psychopath.
(But this is the only part of it that I would see as even remotely immoral. If they are not in some abusive whackjob relationship, but choose to wear the item of their own free will, I still would see nothing wrong with it)
Then I would fail them, and do so with glee .
@2058195:
I see a problem with ripping the clothes off, yes, because then their clothes are damaged.
I see nothing wrong with humiliating a flagrant, repeated rule-breaker in a manner that doesn't physically harm them.
Mind you, this probably has to do with what my best friend has identified as my empathy problem. Being ordered to strip in public wouldn't bother ME, so I have trouble trying to figure out why it would bother anyone else. (I can sympathize easily but have trouble empathizing)
@Shepard:
Never seen it. What device would this be?
And what advice would you give for a way to damage the barbarians' beliefs and worldview without putting their "hostages" in danger? (Honest, not rhetorical, question)
@2058208:
Then I would indeed hate that. However, I wouldn't accept the "forcibly convert an atheist" part, as that infringes on the rights of a third party, the atheist.
As for the "holding up placards," I would accept that as my punishment for whatever wrongdoing I committed. It would certainly do a good job of convincing me not to do it again.
How about removing the pants, the shirt, the knickers, the bra, the glasses? Those are important to a person...
This is what a headscarf is to people who have grown up with them; a piece of clothing that decent-dressed people are wearing, without it they feel naked. Like the shirt, the bra, the knickers.
@Thanos6:
Basically they're dealing with a murderous theocratic empire from another galaxy (sound familiar?) and they're ultimately forced to use an ancient device that the religion's original opposition couldn't bring themselves to use. The device essentially bypasses a person's indoctrination, self-delusion & other mental defenses and then forces them to directly confront reality without them. Sort of like the PoV Gun from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy , except without the bias. They make the high priest look into the device and, since the lower ranks of the priesthood receive their powers from the higher, it spreads to their entire priesthood.
As for our world and its problems, I think that in the end we're stuck with the same options of every generation before us: doing our best to make those with any openness in their mind see reason and waiting for the unassailable hold-outs to die. It sucks but I can't see any realistic shortcuts that aren't be likely to backfire.
@ Swede:
How about removing the pants, the shirt, the knickers, the bra, the glasses?
As I said earlier in the thread, sure. If we're dealing with adults, the only one of those I'd feel bad about would be the glasses, because those are necessary.
But like I said before, this is probably my empathy gap at work.
a piece of clothing that decent-dressed people are wearing
For some reason, this makes me want to quote the 1989 Batman movie. "Decent people shouldn't live here. They'd be happier someplace else."
Well, Thanos, I presume YOU are an adult - and you did not respond to my comment about a judge deciding a misdemeanor is worth your dignity.
If you're going to argue - and especially if the point you're tring to make is as dumb as yours - the least you can do is read beyond the first couple of lines of the person arguing with you. It's not like you were asked to read fucking War and Peace.
Because public humiliation is certainly an ideal punishment, and not at all considered abusive in any way. There's a system of valid punishments. Detention. Suspension. No recess. Sitting in the hall.
And all she did in the original story was sit in his chair. That's a trip to the principle at BEST, not confiscation of her scarf explicitly because she doesn't want people seeing her hair.
Though out of curiosity, what kind of offense would you consider deserving of this kind of punishment? I assume that if any behavior is bad enough for you to want to fail them (with glee, as you said) as an alternative to this, then I assume that it has to be serious, right?
@Dybbuk: Yes I did. I said "if a judge did that to me, I would be fine with it. I would deserve it."
@SCA: You're right, just sitting in the chair wouldn't be enough. As I said, this should only be used on adults. If the adult in question was loudly disrupting class, and had been explicitly instructed to be quiet and calm down so the other students could learn, and then continued to be disruptive, then after two or three warnings, I would consider that enough justification. (This assumes they don't have any form of syndrome which would cause said outbursts, but as a teacher I should be aware of that)
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