freethinking #fundie

freethinking #fundie phys.org

The big question one needs to ask Atheists is to ask them, What proof would it take for you to believe that there is a God?

Fundamentally, truthful atheists will admit to you that there is NO proof that they will accept. They are closed minded.

So for all the atheists on this board, answer me this one question, where is the body of Jesus?

79 comments

old comment by anothga

Fundamentally, truthful atheists will admit to you that there is NO proof that they will accept. They are closed minded.
This is a blatant lie. The closest thing to this that a non-strawman atheist will say i9s that it might be difficult to prove God's existence, not impossible.

If someone would ask me, what would it take for me to reject Christianity, my answer would simply be, show that Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead, show me the body or come up with an explanation of where his body is. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then the new testament is nothing but lies. If Jesus rose from the dead, then the bible is true and needs to be taken literally.
This is the same kind if idiocy as when that ancient aliens guy says he'll stop believing aliens created us only if they personally come to Earth and say they didn't created us.

So for all the atheists on this board, answer me this one question, where is the body of Jesus?
Where is your proof that Jesus existed, a proof that's not Bible's hearsay? If you can't answer that, why do you believe?

old comment by Swede

What proof would it take for me to believe that there is a god? Perhaps him/her/it healing Stephen Hawking and giving him about ten good years of being able to use his limbs again. Or him/her/it convincing all the abusive assholes in Saudi Arabia, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab, the Republican Party, etc, that women and men are equal and ought to have equal rights, opportunities and responsibilities.

We're close-minded? You can't even imagine a world without your god? Even if I managed to accept that there might be a god, it might not be your particular one; it might even be a goddess. I kinda like Freya and Demeter.

IF Jesus ever existed at all, it's now so long ago since he died, his body is just dust.
Have you sold all your possessions and given the money to the poor yet, fixed-thinker? No?
So the Bible is not to be taken literally, after all? Just the things you like, right?

Once again; IF he existed, his body is now dust.

old comment by Warren McIntosh

If Jesus, or indeed any of his key disciples, really wanted his teachings to stick (and lets face it, they (probably) thought they were representing god, and had a message of critical importance), then the resurection had to occour.

How hard you you think it would have been for a couple of them to remove the body? Not hard, and then the rest of them would have seen the empty tomb.

And of course they all knew that the body could have been taken just as well as anybody else, which is why the main evidence for the resurection comes not from the lack of body (plenty of the disciples themselves didn't accept that as irrefutable evidence) but by him appearing to them afterwards alive and well, with various holes in him.

Thats what your book says anyway.

Also, fuck you for your stupid and obvious spiteful little lie about athiests not accepting proof. If you really think that Jesus popping down today and say instentaneously whisking one off to a mountaintop on Mars for a wee chat about how the universe actually works, with a couple of miracles thrown in for effect, would not be sufficent evidence, then you are considerably stupider than anyone suspects. Except your not that stupid - what you are is a liar.

old comment by KittyKaboom

When I was a little girl I happened upon a famous one-liner: There won't be an easter this year - they found the body.

Of course, my parents were not amused and it took me a really long time to understand why. If such a discovery were to occur, christianity would immediately die.

As long as his remains stay hidden, the majority religion stays intact. Never mind all of the good things he said/did and the fact that many see belief in his story as the measure by which human decency is determined.

For all of their bluster and bullshit about their faith, you realize it's actually pretty fragile when you stop to think about it. When one discovery can yank the rug out from under the whole thing, it's pretty shaky to begin with.

old comment by MockAE

Funnily enough I was asking myself the same question only the other day.

I think this points out one very big difference between theists and atheists: you'd be hard pressed to find many atheists who are actually so unshakeable in their faith as to deny the possibility of a proof of God. I mean, it's not as if anyone has much invested in it or like there's anything to be gained by being so resolute. The absence of a higher power isn't exactly going to give you extra points for turning a simple refusal to accept an extra unproven premise into some kind of weird article of faith.

Whereas it's supposed to be a point of pride in most religions as to how solid your faith is. You are *meant* to be closed minded. The more so, the better a believer you are. So it's ironic in a sense that this guy uses it as a criticism: from the atheist POV it is, but surely not from a theists's view.

Anyway my view: extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I'd take quite a bit of convincing but TBH as a scientist I'd be forced to accept it if it was easy to test and easy to rule out other explanations. Just being able to go and talk to him would be one pretty good method!

old comment by creativerealms

Man the mirror is shinny. I'm reminded of a debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham. Who was it that said that no piece of evidence would ever change his mind? Oh yeah Ham

As for the "Where is the body of Jesus?" question. Well where is his empty tomb? How do you know it's Jesus Tomb? How do you know a Jesus lived anyway? How do you know if he lived that he died like they say he did.

Not knowing where Jesus body is as much proof for Jesus not existing as it is proof he is God in the Flesh.

Yet I bet you won't accept that answer.

As for what it would take for me to accept Christianity.
1: For it to clearly predict something that happens today.
2: For the rapture to happen.
3: For Jesus to return and do a miracle that can't be explained by any other means.
4: The healing of an amputee, a medical miracle that can't be explained by normal means.
5: Archeological proof that humans existed along side dinosaurs.
6: The Arc discovered.

That's to name a few.

old comment by Nemo

Seeing as how we would have no way to identify the body, you are making an impossible demand which could not be satisfied under any circumstance. In any case, even if Jesus did rise from the dead, that still wouldn't get rid of all of the evidence which says that young earth creationism is bunk, nor would it eliminate the Socratic problem from the New Testament.

As for what would convince me your specific deity exists: if the followers of said deity (and mind you, only the ones who hold the right theology) could, in the name of said deity, write their theology in the sky at will with inextinguishable fire, or into the ocean with mile long icebergs, or into the night sky by rearranging the stars. Laughably easy for an omnipotent being, eh?

old comment by Passerby

The big question one needs to ask Atheists is to ask them, What proof would it take for you to believe that there is a God?

Well let's see. If God spoke directly to all people at all times, as the Bible claimed, I would consider there was an intangible intelligence guiding us. If the miracles the Bible claimed happened so regularly it became an accepted fact of daily life was recorded anywhere but in the Bible and were observable today I would consider that there was something shaping reality to its whims. If the Bible could be backed up by the records of other civilizations that existed at the time who did not have a vested interest in spreading superstition as a means of social control and engineering I would consider at the very least the mundane occurances supportable. Basically, if the Bible were anything but hogwash I would give it more than a passing thought.

That is not to say I would actually worship the God of the Bible if I thought they existed.

You see for as much as the Bible says God is good the actions depicted paint a very different story. Cruelty, abuse, egotism, sadism, punishment given for actions people were predetermined - forced by their tormentor - to perform with only terror for justification. God shows all of these things in the Bible and if the Bible turns out to be accurate we have to believe that too. Such a monster deserves no adulation and living in eternal fear of them to the point where you would willingly submit to performing and enduring acts you know are wrong and praising them afterwards is no different than being in Hell. Infinite pain is pedestrian in comparison to such an existence and oblivion a mercy.

If that turns out to be the case Ebon gets a new convert.

As for the bones of a 2000 year old dead Middle-Eastern Jew whose very existence is questioned by some I'm going to have suggest decomposition. Not like you can compare DNA to fresh baked bread and finely aged wine to identify the body anyways.

old comment by

Hard to find his corpse if he might not even have existed to begin with...

Besides, knowing you guys, you'd probably dismiss any corpse (or rather skeletal remains) we present you with as false, no matter how accurate it is. You guys have a tendency of always moving the goalposts.

But to answer your question, have a supernatural creature appear out of nowhere, adress everyone in the world simultaniously, have it display undisputable reality warping powers, have it show it's goodness by healing the sick and handicapped and feed the starving massess in third world countries. Oh, and it also has to self-identify as your god; so if it's name is actually Galactus, it doesn't count.
Satisfy all these quota and I will admit that that creature may very well be the biblical god, though we cannot be a 100% certain. For all we know, it's some sufficiently advanced alien pretending to be god.

old comment by SpukiKitty

So for all the atheists on this board, answer me this one question, where is the body of Jesus?

Well, gee.....I have 6 theories....

1.) They stole his body.
2.) The story was embellished heavily and he was in a state of near-death and revived.
3.) The whole gospel is one big embellishment created over time via "telephone" involving one or more guys who became this "Jesus" character.
4.) He's still dead but we never found the tomb.
5.) He was a (drum roll please) MYTH!
6.) We're talking a 2000-year period. Bodies rot & crumble over time, even bones. The usual way of burial for Hebrews back then was "Put a corpse in a cave to rot to a skeleton then put the bones in an ossuary box and bury somewhere else".

Also, a good number of Atheists state that "Jesus Is Just Alright With Me" even if they don't believe that "God" stuff. The guy had some nice social teachings.

Maybe you FRUMS should apply Jesus' teachings to your life for a change, you hateful, log-eyed Caiaphas-wannabees! Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, Non-Christians, etc. are fine with Christianity...real Christianity...that lovely peaceful humanitarian faith based on kindness, charity, humility, unconditional love, forgiveness, non-violence, etc. The Christian faith could have been the greatest force for good but NOOOOOOOO....you made it a warmongering, pogrom-loving, misogynistic, cruel mess that has set humanity backwards!

Y'know, scriptures are actually ahistorical myths. It shouldn't matter if Jesus existed or not....but you're still an idiot over obsessing over the motes in other's eyes, my ocular-2 X 4 friend.

Oh, IMHO....between you & me....God, as an independent being floating in the sky somewhere....doesn't exist. There is no God. God as a Pantheistic concept, however, may exist but a "big guy in the sky" is a stupid superstitious concept. Deity can't heal amputees because Deity IS Creation and must follow the laws of Nature in the Matter plane.

But Deity is the intelligence of humans who can create prosthetic limbs!

But what do I know?....I'm one of those Wicca-types.

old comment by Nicole

If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then the new testament is nothing but lies.
Nope. It's very possible to embellish actual events with fictional details. The fact that, say, that Lifetime movie about JK Rowling is full of inaccuracies and embellishments doesn't mean that she didn't attend Wyedean School and Sixth Form Centre, live in Portugal at one point, and write a highly successful book. Many of the events in the New Testament could be accurate and truthful without all of them being so.

If Jesus rose from the dead, then the bible is true and needs to be taken literally.
Nope, sorry buddy, not even close. Even if you managed to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a man living in first-century Judea was crucified and resurrected... all you'd have proven was that a man living in first-century Judea was crucified and resurrected. It would do absolutely nothing to overturn the mountains and mountains of evidence that demonstrate that the universe is billions of years old and that humankind evolved from something else, and it certainly would not prove that the agent responsible for his resurrection was an all-powerful god responsible for the creation of the entire universe - for all you know, it could have been some strange and very powerful being who just gets a kick out of bossing humans around and uses his powers to put on an impressive show now and then to make people think he really is a supreme god.

old comment by John

truthful atheists will admit to you that there is NO proof that they will accept

Sure they would. Let God show Himself. I don't mean circumstantial evidence or stuff like "if there's no God, how do you explain X". I mean actual an actual appearance.

show me the body or come up with an explanation of where his body is.

There is no record of Jesus beyond what's in the Bible. So nothing about what happened to his body is recorded anywhere else. If he died and was buried in the ordinary manner, there's no reason to think his body is still around. BTW, we don't know where Mary's body is, either and there are even 7th century accounts that her tomb was found empty, yet most Protestants deny the so-called "assumption of the Virgin".

old comment by Professor von SCIENCE!!!

"So for all the atheists on this board, answer me this one question, where is the body of Jesus?"

Fictional characters do not have bodies!

"The big question one needs to ask Atheists is to ask them, What proof would it take for you to believe that there is a God?

Fundamentally, truthful atheists will admit to you that there is NO proof that they will accept. They are closed minded."

Are you really that dense? All God needs to do is fucking do something incredible like speak to everyone in the world at the same time and then give them a list of specific miracles he will perform. And I'm talking legitimate miracles not something like a baby's first smile or something dumb like that. Make Mount Rushmore get up and dance. Have the Eiffel Tower talk. Have Tyler Perry make a funny movie. Something!

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"The big question one needs to ask Atheists is to ask them, What proof would it take for you to believe that there is a God?"

A rainbow doesn't physically exist...:

image

...but at least it can be seen. Thus:

image

If this 'God' of yours can't do a Morgan Freeman in "Bruce Almighty", then he doesn't exist.

"atheists will admit to you that there is NO proof that they will accept. They are closed minded"

image

Prove that this 'Jesus' of yours existed first - using hard solid secular peer reviewed evidence - then we'll talk. Who's the closed minded one now, hmmmmm...?!

"So for all the atheists on this board, answer me this one question, where is the body of Jesus?"

Ramses II was worshipped as a god:

image

An actual DNA-analysable body does his existence no harm, neither.

"come up with an explanation of where his body is. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then the new testament is nothing but lies."

There was no 'Jesus'. Prove us wrong otherwise (PROTIP: Ramses II. He existed). The NT is lies.

All it takes is hard, solid, empirical, secular peer reviewed evidence. Otherwise, the Bible is nothing more than a book of fairytales with ideas above it's station.

old comment by NotaReptile

About the evidence I would need to believe in a god:

Way back in olden times, gods typically were used to explain natural events that seemingly defied everyday human understanding (the movement of the sun). This included the early versions of the Abrahamic god.

Now we can explain enough natural events to rightly guess that even currently unexplained events have natural causes. Thus, gods have become a sort of incorpreal entity.

So I have a hard time coming up with anything specific that you would need to produce. Ideally, it would be performing miracles under scientific scrutiny (here's a spoiler, your local faith healer is lying to you). But if you could provide evidence of miraculous (meaning events that could not have happened without divine intervention) events described in the bible, it would cause me to reconsider some things.

As for the body of Jesus, well he was most likely a composite character. I personally think he was fictional, but its possible that the Gospels describe a mishmash of the various savior cults that were so popular in the 1st century. So there may be a body of a man who started the philosophical basis for Christianity, albeit badly decomposed (the Israelites did not mummify their dead). We likely won't find it, or if we do we won't know who it is. As time goes on it becomes increasingly unlikely that human remains with be preserved, and that they'll be found. There have been many humans throughout history, and so finding ancient bodies isn't an uncommon occurrence, what is uncommon is finding any specific person. Most of the bodies we can identify either had an identifying item at the site, or were royalty and had a named burial complex.

If there was a Jesus, his body has likely been lost to history. As the resurrection story has no physical evidence and contradictory accounts in the Gospels. The resurrection event is very likely to be wholly fictional. The fact we haven't found a body indicates 1 of 4 things. Jesus was fictional (most likely), his body is still buried (likely), his body has entirely decomposed (2nd most likely), or his body ascended (extraordinarily unlikely).

So the question isn't "atheists, where is Jesus's body", its "Christians, provide proof of the resurrection".

old comment by

"What proof would it take for you to believe that there is a God? "

Oh, I don't know, just a few little things...

-Evidence of the supernatural
-Evidence some being resides there that can read our minds, can be influenced by our thoughts, cares about us, cares about what we think, and cares who we have sex with
-Evidence this being that resides there can do things that affect reality
-Evidence this being can create universes from nothing
-Evidence this being created our universe from nothing
-Evidence this being can create life from nothing
-Evidence this being created life on earth from nothing
-An explanation of why evil and suffering exists, why diseases exist, why children have cancer, are raped, abused, and go hungry, and why he hasn't done jack shit about it
-An explanation why catholic priests raped children while the church knowingly moved abusers to new victims and to avoid prosecution
-An explanation of why some animals can replace lost limbs but he cannot heal amputees
-An explanation of which religion is the "One True Religion"
-Evidence this being is the being documented as "God", "Jesus", and the "Holy Spirit" as documented in the Judeo-Christian bible
-An explanation of why so many versions of this bible exist, and which version is the "One True Version"
-A verse-by-verse description performed by this "god" of what's in this given bible, why each verse is there, whether or not it is literally true, and what each verse means in clear, unambiguous, concise modern language without contradiction that could never again be misunderstood, misconstrued, or mistranslated
-An explanation of why he was such a dick in the old testament
An explanation of why he couldn't just forgive Adam and Eve
-An explanation of why so many of his "followers" are such assholes
-An explanation of why people use Leviticus to persecute gays while simultaneously ignoring all of the other verses in Leviticus
-A detailed explanation of his position on every religion-related issue of every society on earth
-An explanation of why Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort, and Kirk Cameron are such fucking idiots

That might do for a start...and NO, your bible isn't evidence.

freethinking #fundie phys.org

79 comments

Confused?