[Sikh children are permitted to wear a small, dull ceremonial dagger to school]
Yeah, let's see, six year old points his finger and goes bang
95 comments
I have to admit that logosone has a certain point.
(Lets just ignore temporarily the blatant ignorance "Sikh = Muslims", and that small ceremonial daggers aren't 'butcher knifes')
Handcuffing small boys for making "bang noises", or for cutting pistol-like shapes from paper in class (both incidents happened!), but on the other hand allowing symbolic weapons to be carried to school is double-standard behaviour.
The problem I see here: I'm quite sure that the ceremonial dagger was allowed because of religious reasons. So again: Once you play the "Religion card", suddenly it is much easier to enforce your will, and get things allowed which are forbidden for other people.
For example, there was an incident where a 16yr old wore a t-shirt in school with the dreaded anti-gay leviticus bible verse on it. He was ordered to remove his t-shirt, he refused and sued. In court, he did NOT argue with "free speech", but with "religious freedom". And he won the case.
This is the problem I see here: The unjustified preference of religion, and its privileged status in a secular society.
Different cultures, different religions, same humans (or human-like creatures).
The one religion is suited to a disciplined and meditative approach to life, believing that all people are worthy of truth and justice. Women have equal status to men in its ceremonies and all are welcome in its places of worship.
The other religion is suited to a mentally disturbed, hysterical, amateur dramatic attention whore that likes to stomp its foot petulantly. This religion's believer lives to persecute others and imagines all criticism of them or their religious ideals (or indeed of their political ideals) is actually persecution of them and their religion. Women are considered to be less worthy than camels, their main purpose being to screech ghoulishly while their menfolk shuffle disconsolately, all the while drooling copiously like feckless zombie bovines.
I wonder which one logosone is a member of?
Yeah, let's see, six year old human points his finger and goes bang and he is hauled away in shackles to the Clockwork Orange reprogramming facility, but the mutant kid can display his powers and have them always at the ready in the classroom.
Fixed that for ya.
I work with preschoolers. It'd be easier for one of them to do harm with a heavy block than a dull blade.
Was the six-year-old repeatedly harrassing or threatening someone before pointing a pretend gun? We take away fake guns all the time and don't have the kids arrested. Bullying, on the other hand, gets a phone call to parents.
Can't get to RR to find out where the Sikh children are, but I did read this weekend that a 6 year old in the US (IIRC, Denver, CO?) had a 1 day suspension for bringing his toy Nerf gun to school. Zero tolerance, you know.
In our school, zero tolerance means a butter knife is confiscated and the kid is sent home. I remember a kid in my school getting this for a plastic knife for his orange.
Since, from what I hear, a ceremonial charm may be worn instead of a real dagger, I still don't understand why this conversation is still happening. School rules trump all religions, wear a damn charm and follow the rules.
Obviously one must concede that logosone is an ignorant chapeau de cul , but why are Sikh children bringing dagger-like objects to school? Even when I was a young 'un I had to surrender my official cub scout pocketknife to the teacher at the beginning of the school day. If everyone was allowed to carry a blade fine, but I don't think you should get a pass by invoking your crazy-ass traditions.
Also, as mentioned by others, many Sikhs do just fine with the symbolic kirpan-shaped tie tack.
Also also, why did I think it was only adult male Sikhs who were required to go about strapped?
Zero tolerance policies are stupid, but not as stupid as the idea that "Sikh == Muslim".
(If you look at the thread, several people do point out the error.)
Now now, he actually has a point. Who knows if some crazy and disturbed kid will try to use that as a weapon? However, as soon as he said that Sikhs are Muslims, he revealed his stupidity.
Muslim, Sikh, who cares? They're all evil brown people who don't believe in Jesus.
And what would a good, God-fearing rapturite know about A Clockwork Orange ? It's an evil, worldly movie with boobies.
We just recently had a quote from a fundie about the horrors of Catholic kids carrying rosaries and crosses/crucifixes. Obviously, the solution is to implement the fundie dress code for school children - a straitjacket, so they can't carry or reach for anything that might be dangerous and a blindfold and earplugs so they won't see or hear anything that might be evil.
Sure, they'll grow up ignorant, isolated and probably psychotic. But that's the fundie way!
Ignorant, hysterical, and greatly exaggerated but still asomewhat valid point. We shouldn't give people special privileges just because they belong to a particular religion. Either having (dull) daggers is okay for everyone (obviously aside for people with extreme mental disorders, violent criminal backgrounds, or other legitimate limitations) or it's okay for no one. On the other side, a threatening posture (even with an obviously fake weapon i.e. a finger shaped like a gun) demands attention, but only if it's used as a threat not if they're playing cops and robbers.
I was suspicious of this story just because it originally came from FOX News so I researched it with a five second Google search. Yes, the Sihk kids can take a kirpan to school. However the kirpan is subject to the following rules:
--Any kirpan worn at school must be sewn inside a sheath in such a way that the blade would not be removable from the sheath.
--The blade of the kirpan would be restricted in length to no more than two and one-fourth inches.
--The blade of the kirpan must be dull.
--The kirpan cannot be worn outside clothing and cannot be visible in any way.
--Staff members will not conduct random searches; however, students who violate any of the conditions will be subject to discipline including prohibition of wearing the kirpan to school in the future.
From: http://plymouth-mi.patch.com/articles/gurdwara-sahib-opens-its-doors-to-the-community-2
So, even though the fundie makes a big deal out of this it really isn't that big of a deal. Certainly, Sihk children can't carry a "butcher knife at the ready in the classroom".
Not only was the fundie ignorant in his confusion of Sihks with Muslims he was also ignorant in that he took Fox News at face value.
Dull knife =/= butcher's knife
And frankly, zero tolerance, in many areas, HAS been taken too far. The original point of zero tolerance was to protect the well-being of schoolchildren, but it has backfired horribly.
Sikhs aren't Muslim or even close to Muslim.
No six-year-old has been hauled away in shackles for pointing his finger and going "bang".
The teachers are mostly watching Sikh Kid like a hawk to make sure he doesn't do anything with his small dull ceremonial dagger.
You lose.
I feel like pulling my real horroshow kickboots on my nogas and going over to logosone's place for some of the old ultraviolence.
*sigh*
It's been too many years since I was a nadsat- maybe it's just the velocets talking as I cry into my moloko plus!
Sikh and ye shall find.
Sorry.
If we have a zero-tolerance policy for violont objects, let's go all the way. If the Sikh kid can't have his dagger, crosses and cricifixes are out, too. Execution! How violent! You wouldn't let a kid make a noose, so why is a cross OK?
How about we all just stop using bullshit superstition to justify madness? Hey I believe in the flying spaghetti monster, ergo, free spaghetti for my life.
HEAR THAT OLIVE GARDEN!!!
Okay, while I agree with the sentiment about the double standard, it isn't a fucking "butcher knife", and this "zero tolerance" bullshit has gotten WAY out of hand.
@#1253548
You got it right!
Thanks...
What's funny is that the Sikhs are one of the "Nice Guys" of the religious strain. In fact, if I ever "had" to choose a religion, it would definitely be the Sikhs. Equality of the sexes? Welcome and tolerance for all? Definitely there.
Uh, what's even dumber in that thread is that someone wrote this:
"The artilce beings with "Detroit area district", i.e. Dearborn or close, the largest Arab community in the U.S.
The district that this affects is not Dearborn, it's the Plymouth-Canton district. Besides not being close to Dearborn or Detroit, there's nowhere NEAR a muslim majority around here in Plymouth-Canton. However, there *is* a large Indian and Sikh community.
>>
--The blade of the kirpan would be restricted in length to no more than two and one-fourth inches.
--The blade of the kirpan must be dull.
--The kirpan cannot be worn outside clothing and cannot be visible in any way.
Wait a minute - that kirpan is the size of a pocketknife. Are kids allowed to carry pocketknives to school these days?
And it is dull, and it is sewn into the sheath. That makes it just about as dangerous as a roll of quarters.
I'm all for banning weapons and other deadly academic implements in schools. Things such as knives, guns, bazookas, compasses, dividers, cricket bats and stumps, baseball bats, footwear (naturally, slippers are perfectly allowable), all knives and forks in the school canteen, over-sharpened pencils, marbles etc. There, that shows that I have a serious and earnest side to my nature, and that I'm perfectly capable of anal retentive, egoistic and rigidly disciplined, PC pomposity.
Working in a large high school, I can see the point against allowing students to have even small, dull weapons. Perhaps the knives could be permanently attached in the scabbards, thus, not a weapon, but still a religous symbol.
Here's American law: If you do something for well-established religious reasons, that must be accommodated unless there's a legitimate social reason not to. If you threaten somebody, that's illegal, regardless of whether it's part of your religion to do so.
If someone wears a dagger and they appear to be a public threat, that can be banned, even if it is for well-established religious reasons. If people wear a dagger and they don't appear to be a public threat, that can't be banned.
Guru Gobind Singh ji 22 December 1666 7 October 1708 was the tenth Guru of Sikhism, he was the man who commanded that they always wear the dagger, this seems weak as it does not really seem like a requirement of faith that they carry it. His suggestion is a small part of a speech given in 1699 which emphasizes that the sword is primarily for the protection of others, I think with times being what they are, a sword was probably a good idea, however I do not think it remains a good idea today.
I think the symbolic kirpans are a good idea, when weighed against a viable weapon, just as many followers of christian faiths wear crucifixes to symbolize the story of the death of their savior at Golgotha at the hands of the roman people.
It's wrong for BOTH of them to be punished. Neither pretending your finger is a gun nor carrying a dagger you can't use is a serious threat. If you ask me, any school that worries about either needs to straighten out its priorities.
But of course, if you ask Rapture Ready, only the school that doesn't kick the brown kid out needs to.
Sikhs and Muslims are not the same. Idiot.
Also, the clockwork orange reprogramming facility does not exist.
@Anon
I believe you are referring to the Chase Harper case. Harper sued the Poway school district claiming infringement of his right of free speech (not religion) when he was told to remove a T-shirt which declared homosexuality shameful. He lost his case in the U.S. District court and 9th Circuit appeals court.
The Supreme Court pusseyed out and declared the case moot because it dealt with an injunction against the school district and Harper had already graduated. The SCOTUS then sent it back to the district court where Harper lost again.
Despite much hoopla in the right wing press about this case it will lose in the 9th circuit again and, by the time it reaches the SCOTUS again, Harper's sister Kelsie will have graduated and the whole thing will be moot.
If the T-Shirt had contained disparaging statements about blacks, Catholics, Jews or left handed trumpet players there would be no issue at all. The school would be right and Harper wrong. Only because Christianity thinks it's OK to target homosexuals with hate speech has it gotten anywhere.
The case is being pursued by the ADF, the law firm that pushes Christian "rights" all over the place. I put "rights" in quotes because according to the ADF Christianity should be extended special privileges that no one else enjoys. If it was up to the ADF we'd all be singing Christian hymns to start off the day at schools, places of business and retirement homes. They are that fucked up.
I was going to comment on how a butter knife is harmless, so why would you call it that. I was, until I pulled a double take and noticed you called a Sikh a Muslim. This is on top of your already ridiculous assertions of how schools work.
Now I can't choose.
This ones free. If I'm torn between what part of your statement to ridicule first, it's probably a sign it was really fucking bad.
@Anon
Are kids allowed to carry pocketknives to school these days?
Glen Beck carries a pistol to the movies and the grocery store. That's his god-given right and he'll shoot anyone that says otherwise. I carry a folding knife everywhere I go and usually have a backup knife for actual fighting in case I am attacked. Nobody gives a shit, but then again I'm not the 'different' kid in an American school where you are frisked for weapons on your way through the front door because of the 'incident' where a couple guys pulled assault weapons on eachother. Sikhs keep safety-scissor-sharp daggers *locked* in the sheaths, worn as formal attire. I carry a knife in my pocket and a dagger on my belt. Republicans carry a magnum in a shoulder holster with a Saturday night special strapped to their leg in case they're ever caught out of reach of their shotguns. You give one shit, you got to take the others into account.
Hey, it's his 2nd Amendment right, is it not?
>#1254283
Are kids allowed to carry pocketknives to school these days?
No. <<
Okay then - that justifies the kirpan being dull and locked in its sheath.
The policy is consistent, although we can argue about it being rational.
Fist of all Sikhs are not Muslims. I know that is hard for you to believe, but there are more then just Christians, Muslims, and Jews around. Secondly, if I am not mistaken, that knife can not be used for anything. Not only is it small and dull, it is a religious symbol. Using it as a weapon would be considered blasphemous.
Make up your mind: is it a Sikh child or a Muslim child? Oh don't tell me... you've never heard of a religion called the "Sikh"? (Would that be called sikhian, by any chance? Not sure.)
I thought so, as long it's not xian, it's Muslim no matter what.-
Live and let live, seriously shout out to that Jesus freak who said "their all evil brown people" yeah nice going dumbass, wtf is up with ur ignorant ass anyways. its not like this muslim or sukh or whatever its called gonna go around killing lil ppl. damn. yall just shut up and do what u wanna do.
Turban does not equal Muslim, sir.
That said, arresting kids for finger-guns and such is ludicrous.
>>Gnome
Not quite. The kirpan is supposed to be an instrument of non-violence. Using it as a weapon is forbidden except when all other means of resolving conflict have failed - but then using it is mandatory. Using it aggressively is always forbidden.
Actually, I agree with Captain Retard from RR on this one - up until the sikh muslim thing, and after the clockwork orange thing. On second thoughts I don't actually agree with him on much at all.
But I have been to India, and I have seen enough of these little buggars in my time to know they're not toys. 'Dull' is a hard term to quantify, most people will go by the rule of thumb that it means an unsharpened blade but this could still be sharp enough to cut skin. In any case, a dull knife can still be used as a weapon and the permission to carry them concealed is akin to smoking near a powder keg.
If someone travels outside of their own culture, they are expected to follow the rules of the culture they travel to. Whilst these rules are usually quite free and flexiblem surely the carrying of a concealed weapon in a school is breaking a few of them.
Ever consider that carrying a dagger might lead to self restraint, discipline and control?
No. That's impossible... Children should be sheltered and given no freewill.
Sorry, but I've got to say, giving children knives in school will NOT end well. If it's sewn in, well, thread isn't the strongest stuff in the universe. And, really, a dull knife is still a knife. Even if it's not a weapon of unhappy stabby badness, well, if you were, say, seven years old and another seven year old had a knife in your face, I don't think "Oh, well clearly it is a dull knife, and therefore is harmless unless shoved in my eye or throat or something" would be your thought process. You know what your thought process would be? "HOLY FUCKING SHIT KNIFE FUCK SHIT FUCK!" So yeah, I don't trust children with knives. Speaking as someone who was bullied the fuck out of as a kid, kids are evil little bastards. DO NOT GIVE THEM KNIVES.
The mixing up Sikh and muslim is a problem, but to be honest, this is an issue. Religious exemptions allowing a weapon on school grounds, symbolic or not, is not appropriate by any means. It also puts others at risk because you're going to get others trying to find ways to use this exemption to get other things in too.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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