bakerhorsepower #fundie

bakerhorsepower #fundie rr-bb.com

I find it's amazing in how with all the bombs going into Israel (sp?) only 4 people as of yesterday had been killed. It that doesn't speak to God's hand over his people and how he protects and will defend us. I don't know what does.

87 comments

old comment by Laughing Man

It speaks volumes of the extent that the Israeli government will go through to protect its people. I am sorry but Hamas has earned this ass kicking, they are supposedly looking out for the Palestine people but won't stop shooting rockets at Israel to stop this war. Israel wasn’t the one who started lobbing missiles almost the second the truce expired. If it was happening here we would all want our military to do whatever it takes to make the terror stop. GO ISRAEL - GO IDF KICK SOME HAMAS ASS.

Side note yes I do feel for the poor innocent Palestinian civilians loosing their lives. May Hamas knock this crap off so they get some relief.

old comment by Laughing Man

@ Terf

Israel doesn't want to "come out on top" they want the rocket attacks to STOP. For YEARS they have restrained themselves, tic for tac responses to the rocket launches and that has gotten them right back in the same situation. At what point does it have to get to before enough is enough and they make Hamas realize it will be INCREDIBLY painful for you to launch another rocket at us. Does the rocket have to hit one of their kindergarten classrooms when its full? I have no doubt that Israel responded to the rocket fire VERY quickly - their radar systems are EXTREMELY good and it is standard procedure for them to have a drone or manned aircraft over the launch point minutes after the rocket or mortar is fired.

old comment by The Jager Bomb

Maybe if Israel wasn't making Palestinians go through a check point everytime one of 'em needs to take a dump. They wouldn't have democratically elected a radical faction like Hamas.

And maybe, even if this military movement was justified Israel would take more care not to kill civilians at a nearly 1:1 rate when compared to Hamas agents. That might go a long way towards making sure another group like Hamas isn't thrust into power by an abused and oppressed people.

Israel shouldn't even exist, the idea of returning the Jewish people to their "homeland" after 2000 years and in the process displacing the people who lived their while they were gone was completely retarded 90 years ago, and is just as stupid today.

The Jews had absolutely no claim to that land outside of their damn fairy tale myth. But because the USA and Europe subscribe to essentially the same fairy tale, we are incapable of seeing Israel do any wrong.

Now, with that out of the way, let me say that I do believe that the Jewish People did need to establish their own state after WW2, but for fucks sake they picked the absolute worst place in the entire world to do it. The nations of Europe and the USA could have just have easily PAID for a large plot of land in Western Eupore, Central Africa or hell even Asia. Call it "New Israel" and there ya go, a safe Jewish people, and a century of conflict avoided.

But of course, then they'd be missing all their stupid little religious land marks that people have been killing each other over for years. And we wouldn't want that, would we?

old comment by Tolpuddle Martyr

@Laughing Man

I'm well aware of the fact that users of this site cover all ends of the political spectrum, but, Laughing Man, I find it hard to reconcile opposition to fundamentalism with barracking for Israel (or Hamas for that matter.)

Weren't those same apocalyptic lunatics like bakerhorsepower and the rest of the Jihadists at Rapture Ready and their "charismatic" churches one the biggest factions in the GOP behind the electoral success of George Bush in his disastrous 8 years in office?

Why were the RR brigades backing Bush? Because they wanted the Jews to return to Israel, why? So there would be a big fucking war to herald the end of the world! And they knew that Georgie boy was doing everything short of bombing Hamas himself to make sure that this happened.

That's why those RR freaks have blood orgasms every time the body count rises in that part of the world, they see it as fulfilled prophecy.

Do we, as rationalists want the already embattled region of the middle east to slide into total anarchy? RR and it's band of howling lunatics sure do, and they have shown a capacity to weild real - world non- magical political clout to bring this about.

Think about that the next time you start loudly barracking for the Israeli government and their latest blitzkrieg.

old comment by Laughing Man

@ Tolpuddle Martyr
My backing of Israel in this matter is simply because they are doing what they must to protect their people. If it were MY town that was being rocketed every day, if it was MY daughter's kindergarten classroom that was hit by a rocket in the middle of the day I and everybody else in that town would be screaming for the government to protect them. If the Israelis were not to react to this then who is to blame when one of these rockets hits a class when it is full? Well Hamas for sure but also the government for not acting when it could have. If it was your town under attack by rockets with little reprieve for 8 years what would you demand your government and military do? I support Israel in this matter because this offensive is what I would want my government to do if I were in the same situation. My support of them has nothing to do with their religion, but rather their wish to live day to day without fear.

old comment by Brain_In_A_Jar

My backing of Israel in this matter is simply because they are doing what they must to protect their people.

You've failed to spot the obvious flaw in this plan. The psychology of Hamas is such that no amount of carpet bombing or other military imposition by the Israelis will ever persuade them to stop lobbing rockets back at them; if anything, it reinforces their frustration and hate and thus their inclination to do so. The only way it could work would be to exterminate Hamas in its entirety, which if achieved would pretty much puts Israel's actions at the same moral level of Hamas, and if not would make them a pointless waste.

The two mentalities are pretty much the same, each wants the same land, each wants the other entirely removed from it by any means necessary.

old comment by FMG

Actually its because the rockets hamaas are using are not that technologically advanced and traditionally were used in vast quantities in a literal hail of fire to saturate a position not in the ones and twos.

That and Israelis have bomb shelters while Palestinians are often living in temporary housing since they are all refugees.

@laughingman
I care about the Israeli peoples right to defend themselves against constant rocket attacks. So congratulations, you sir are an idiot.

Did you care about the Palestinians rights to defend themselves?

The ceasefire was broken by Israel in November. When they stopped sending aid and started doing their border shennanigans. And I am sure the fact that their country has been repeatedly bombed, sectioned off, starved and their children slain makes their country a fun fun place to live in. And face it they got nothing to lose. Israel is going to kill a thousand people. A THOUSAND. Do you even realise that you cannot fight terrorism through force? You fight it by cutting its support off. Not by killing its supporters since you just give them more reason to hate you. There is no such thing as a pinpoint strike.

Honestly West Bank and Gaza should be a separate country. Yet we see Israel shooting protestors in the Capital of Palestine (as in two days ago) and not retreating back to the UN demarcated line and indeed SETTLING in Palestinian territory. Its a two way street. Israel gets away with crap because it has the USA's support. If it were any other country we would have treated it like Apartheid South Africa. Or worse, we would treat it like Burma.

By your logic, India should turn Pakistan into a series of ghettos policed by force after the events in Mumbai. With the blessing of the world. Comparatively fewer casualties were accrued in Israel. Why should everyone else show unbelievable restraint why Israel gets free reign to kill innocent people.

They have learnt nothing and everything from the Holocaust.

old comment by Laughing Man

@drumbo

"Hey I know how they can get security..for starters.?
Move back to the 1967 borders"

Really? Gee because we all know that before 1967 everything was all peachy over there. O wait yeah the 6 day war started because the surrounding Arab countries had surrounded Israel and where getting ready to try to wipe that country off the map. Sorry this goes back to a fight for Israel's very survival. Every time they have given up land lets just say ooo I don’t know Gaza its been used to turn around and strike deeper into Israel. Sure we could go back and forth all day long but the point is that organizations like Hamas are not interested in some concessions they want to COMPLETELY DESTROY Israel, and that is not a matter of opinion - that is what the organization itself has said is its goal. - Foreign policy fail.

old comment by FMG

Because Israel should never have been created in the first place. It is a land based on faith. There is no difference between the logic of any theocracy and yours.

The entire land is PALESTINIAN. Of course there is no "Israel". Your country was an artificial concession made to keep zionists and crazy people happy. It took a bunch of people and created a state where suddenly the original inhabitants of the land were no longer welcome and were forced into camps. Israel was not "yours or your ancestors".

It is theirs. Hamaas have a more legitimate claim than the Israelis to the land. I mean their grandparents lived there for thousands of years before your countrymen made a bunch of dumb claims to take their land.

old comment by Laughing Man

@FMG
"Because Israel should never have been created in the first place"

Well for those that think this then there is nothing that can be said to them to change their minds about this situation. But Israel DOES exist and they will continue to fight for their existence. And as any good government should they will continue to do what is necessary to defend its people. So be upset at them existing all you want but fact is they aren't going anywhere at least without a fight - remember they are a nuclear armed country and it is the policy of EVERY nuclear armed country that if they feel they are at risk to being completely destroyed that they turn all their rival countries into lakes of glass (Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)). Given the alternative I will choose letting Israel defend its populace. Like it or not Israel does exist, is recognized by the majority of countries and the UN, and is going to continue to exist right up until about the start of a very long cold nuclear winter.

O and for the record FMG Israel is not "my country". I have never even been there.

old comment by Tolpuddle Martyr

@Laughing Man
Indeed? You say that Israel is doing what it is doing because Hamas won't stop firing rockets at them?
I checked the link on this page that leads to the Daily Star article and it appears pretty crystal clear that Israel shot first, conducting a lighting raid on Hamas targets on Nov 4th while the world was focused on the US elections. Unless you can refute this information I'm afraid your argument does not have much weight.
Surely the best way to NOT have someone shoot rockets at you is not to pre-emptively strike them in the middle of a shaky truce. Frankly if my government did something so bloody - mindedly stupid I'd be appalled with my government!
Bringing this back to fundamentalism, and the ills associated with it, it's worth remembering that the PLO and Fatah actually made a fairly hefty effort to cooperate with the west for a long time before being voted out. And no, I'm not saying either Fatah or the old PLO were exactly blameless, but from an atheist perspective they were a hell of a lot more attractive than the solidly Islamist Hamas opposition.
The more secular and moderate Fatah were dumped by the Palestinian voters in favour of Hamas because, in spite of the secularists best efforts, the US and Israel continued to ostracise them and the Israeli military continued to pound them.
Sure Fatah failed to reign in Hamas, but then they were having their security infrastructure blown out from under them which made the task difficult to say the least.
Seems to me the US and Israel made it real hard for voices calling for calm to be heard in Palestine and everything possible to make the radically Islamist Hamas more attractive to ordinary Palestinians. And now that Hamas actually tries to stick to a truce and behave rationally, we find Israel bombing the heck out of them without warning! Great incentive to refrain from acting like fundamentalist loonies, not!!!
If sense and reason are to succeed, and fanaticism and superstition to fail then the governments of the world owe it to all of us to create an environment where that can happen; What Israel has been doing, and the west has been condoning aint it!

old comment by Laughing Man

@Tolpuddle Martyr
I am sure Israel conducted small lightning raids against Hamas during the cease fire just as there were isolated incidents of Hamas firing rockets and mortars into Israel during the cease fire. I do believe that Hamas was the first to break with the cease fire -
(Citation article written July 5th 2008 "Since the truce took effect on June 19, militants have fired 11 rockets and mortars at Israel, security officials said. The border crossings have been closed for a week, leaving the flow of aid to the impoverished area at nearly the same level as before the ceasefire.") - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4272883.ece
A lasting peace is going to have to be the only solution - enforced by international monitors to ensure that weapons smuggling by Hamas does not continue - Hamas continues to refuse to allow international monitors into its territory, something Israel welcomes. That being said I wonder who is more likely to be up to no good o.O

old comment by FMG

Yet we remember the native americans for their struggle. Put it this way, what happened to them is what is happening to the Palestinians. And fight they did.

- remember they are a nuclear armed country and it is the policy of EVERY nuclear armed country that if they feel they are at risk to being completely destroyed that they turn all their rival countries into lakes of glass (Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)).

Actually almost all the nuclear powers signed no first use treatises. Its just the USA and Israel.

Given the alternative I will choose letting Israel defend its populace. Like it or not Israel does exist, is recognized by the majority of countries and the UN, and is going to continue to exist right up until about the start of a very long cold nuclear winter.

Like it or not the majority of the world recognises palestine too. Israel does exist. However its claims and its ghettoisation of palestine MUST STOP. There is no "trade on this issue". Israel is illegally occupying another soverign nation under the claims of "protecting its citizens" and merely exacerbating the problem. Look at every succesful anti terror campaign in existence and you will note that it is police work rather than such mindless brutality that has protected the people.

Lest you forget that the situation is very similar to the IRA. The IRA were not stopped by open gun battles between tanks and artillery and aircraft. It was stopped by policework between Ireland and the UK.

old comment by Laughing Man

FMG

First of all ANY country that has nukes that is about to be destroyed WILL use them treaty or no. All nuclear armed countries have plans for this no exceptions. When a country is about to be destroyed it has no use for these treaties.

"Israel is illegally occupying another sovereign nation under the claims of "protecting its citizens" "

Well seeing as they have dropped the number of rocket launches a day from about 80 to around 15 I would say that is a pretty good indicator of them doing what they say they are doing. If Hamas would agree to a peace treaty and would allow the international monitors in to verify that it is abided by then Israel would withdraw. They don't like the idea of occupying Gaza anymore than the Palestinians do.

old comment by drumbo

@Laughing Man
#901693

"Well for those that think this then there is nothing that can be said to them to change their minds about this situation. But Israel DOES exist and they will continue to fight for their existence."

For a state to exist, it has to have recognised borders. This is something that Israel has continued to refuse to do.

"And as any good government should they will continue to do what is necessary to defend its people."

Again see above, they are occupiers of Palestinian land.

"So be upset at them existing all you want but fact is they aren't going anywhere at least without a fight - remember they are a nuclear armed country and it is the policy of EVERY nuclear armed country that if they feel they are at risk to being completely destroyed that they turn all their rival countries into lakes of glass (Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD))."

I'm not at all upset about them existing, they should exist, but in what form, and over what amount of territory is the issue here.
It is nothing at all to do with belief or religion, it is a land grab plain and simple.
They are, as we post here 'putting facts on the ground', to screw up the incoming President, and lets not forget that they have elections coming up.
As for saying they have nukes so lets leave them, so do lots of other countries, Russia for instance, yet the US and the 'west' isn't above critising any counttries it deems unworthy.

"Given the alternative I will choose letting Israel defend its populace. Like it or not Israel does exist, is recognized by the majority of countries and the UN, and is going to continue to exist right up until about the start of a very long cold nuclear winter. "

You mean to say thay they can do what they want, outside of decent norms because they have nukes?

"O and for the record FMG Israel is not "my country". I have never even been there."

You should go. See the squalar, the racism, the apartied state.

And yes they broke the truce, just as they always do.
Sadly Israel knows no other way but war, it could just as easliy open up the borders and let Gaza thrive, but it won't, because it wants the land.

As the saying goes, 'Countries have armies, but Israel is an army with a country'

A couple of links for you..

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1230/1230581467173.html

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200205_Land_Grab.asp

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html

Edit:
Israel has refused to allow reporters into Gaza.

old comment by Laughing Man

@drumbo
First of all a country doesn't have to have its borders defined completely to be a country MANY countries have ongoing border disputes - Japan, Russia, ect. Secondly Israel knows only war because for as long as they have existed there have been countries and terrorist groups trying to destroy them. And third I am not saying because they have nukes they can do whatever they want, what isn't reported is the lengths Israel goes through to avoid civilian casualties, going so far as to call civilians in areas they are going to strike beforehand to give them time to evacuate (possibly losing the ability to take out militants and other HVTs (High Value Targets) in the process. And lastly remember the people they are fighting have no rules or boundaries they would just as soon shoot a rocket into a classroom full of children as into an army base. And as for them not officially declaring boundaries, if they were to claim some of those areas taken during past wars it would open much of it up to settlement, rather than leaving it as a possible concession in future peace negotiations.

old comment by pete

Ah! The "they have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary" argument. I can best demonstrate the problem with this argument by analogy. Assume that we are talking about a crime in the U.S.

A few members of a street gang commit a drive-by shooting. People see the shooters running into an apartment building and call the cops.

A civilized approach would be to surround the building and try to negotiate with the perps. If that doesn't work, send in the SWAT team, at grave risk to themselves.

An uncivilized approach would be to call in an air strike on the building.

The Israeli government appears to have decided on the uncivilized approach. It appears that the children, and grandchildren, of the holocaust victims have accepted genocide as a political tool. It is, after all, part of the process of colonizing a foreign land.

1. Demonize the indigenous population.
2. Isolate the indigenous population.
3. Eliminate the indigenous population.

That's the only way to subjugate a people past the point of rising against their oppressors.

old comment by

@Laughing Man
#901782

"First of all a country doesn't have to have its borders defined completely to be a country MANY countries have ongoing border disputes - Japan, Russia, ect"

It does if it wants to claim people are attacking it.

"Secondly Israel knows only war because for as long as they have existed there have been countries and terrorist groups trying to destroy them."

Israel only knows war because it is scared of anything else. Although with the 'Waltzing with Bashir' film and the Avraham berg book and the 'refuseniks' , the mind set is hopefully slowly changing.

"And third I am not saying because they have nukes they can do whatever they want, what isn't reported is the lengths Israel goes through to avoid civilian casualties, going so far as to call civilians in areas they are going to strike beforehand to give them time to evacuate"

Woa hold on there Muskie..I'm not letting that B$ pass..

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/dec2002/isra-d12.shtml

http://www.kabobfest.com/2009/01/israel-targets-civilians-to-spread-fear.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3370915,00.html

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10086.shtml

Read 'Beyond Chutzpah' for more...

"(possibly losing the ability to take out militants and other HVTs (High Value Targets) in the process."

It doesn't happen, they take out who they want, when they want. In any case the HVTs as you put it are subjected to summary execution, which have no basis in law, someone says they are terrorists so they die. Targets are chosen with no judicial process having been gone through at all.

"And lastly remember the people they are fighting have no rules or boundaries they would just as soon shoot a rocket into a classroom full of children as into an army base."

Sorry epic fail..the IDF likes to tout itself as having higher morals than any other army, but it's garbage..

http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/20090114.asp

http://www.ummah.com/waragainstislam/terrorism.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WEcWNc3DQw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAqJO3zHKAU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0

"And as for them not officially declaring boundaries, if they were to claim some of those areas taken during past wars it would open much of it up to settlement, rather than leaving it as a possible concession in future peace negotiations."

For starters to claim land as a result of war is illegal.

The rest of your paragraph doesn't make sense.

Just so you realise what’s happening.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200205_Land_Grab.asp

http://www.poica.org/maps/index.php

Such nice people

http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=1753

“In 2002, Lieberman stated that he would not hesitate to order the Israeli Army to weep the occupied Palestinian territories to 'Destroy the foundation of all the [Palestinian] authority's military infrastructure not leave one stone on another. Destroy everything.' Civilian targets included. “

Oh yea..democracy? we've heard of it..

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090113.wgazaarabs14/BNStory/Front

old comment by FMG

And if Israel vacates to its internationally agreed borders. Israel won't. So why should Hamas.

First of all a country doesn't have to have its borders defined completely to be a country MANY countries have ongoing border disputes - Japan, Russia, ect.

Israel's border is not disputed. Its set in stone You can see encroachments in the West Bank that should not be there. Its simple fact. I mean thats like Canada setting up shop in Seattle and doing shit there.

Secondly Israel knows only war because for as long as they have existed there have been countries and terrorist groups trying to destroy them.

Ironic for a country founded by terrorism. Could this because they are unbelievable assholes to the palestinians? I think it could be due to that considering the efforts they have put up to create a Jewish only state.

And third I am not saying because they have nukes they can do whatever they want, what isn't reported is the lengths Israel goes through to avoid civilian casualties, going so far as to call civilians in areas they are going to strike beforehand to give them time to evacuate (possibly losing the ability to take out militants and other HVTs (High Value Targets) in the process.

The death toll is at a thousand. Hamaas has killed less civilians. By a factor of close to a percent. This death toll excludes deaths due to Israeli control of the region.

And lastly remember the people they are fighting have no rules or boundaries they would just as soon shoot a rocket into a classroom full of children as into an army base.

Like Israel did two or three days ago?

And as for them not officially declaring boundaries, if they were to claim some of those areas taken during past wars it would open much of it up to settlement, rather than leaving it as a possible concession in future peace negotiations.

Then it would validate everything Hamaas and Hezbollah fight for. You do realise that they both fight against Israel because Israel invaded Their Countries. Israel is consistently making the world a less safe place. Because thats what keeps it in the money.

old comment by Laughing Man

I am not saying that there aren't zealots on both side of the fence but it appears to me that only the Palestinians will celebrate the return of one of their people that in cold blood slit the throats of a civilian family. As for the UN school incident - there is such a thing as the fog of war, the Israeli army accidently killed 4 of their own because of it. And yes as tragic as it is (and I feel for everyone over there that has lost a family member) civilians will be killed especially since Hamas likes to store weapons next to schools and shoot out of houses that have innocent civilians in them or because they dress in civilian clothes and hide like cowards among crowds of civilians.

Do I like the fact that over half of the people that have been killed so far are civilians? No
Being a father myself the images are VERY hard to swallow of parents holding their children's bodies. It’s a horrifying reality.

But what where the Israelis supposed to do - let Hamas continue to launch rockets as they have for the past 8 years? Give them a pat on the arse and a good game every time they killed somebody? Continue to do small retaliations as they have for the past 8 years that have gotten them nothing more than the same? What would you have your government do?

They took a harsh but what I and many of the Israelis there believe to be one of the last choices they had, make Hamas realize that each and every missile will have a price tag attached that is just too high to pay. TRY to avoid killing civilians if possible but teach Hamas a lesson they will not soon forget. FORCE them to accept a peace they did not want to give on their own accord, make them realize that you cannot destroy Israel but Israel can destroy you so quit while you are ahead. HOPEFULLY this will be the last time Israel will have to do something like this. But for the government of Israel, concessions have failed, trying to take out leadership of these groups have failed, small retaliations have failed. Now let them know this will be tolerated no longer and that Israelis will no longer live in fear.

What choice did they have - what other road have they not tried before? How do you reason any other way with a group that wants nothing more than your utter destruction then to make them realize it is they who will be destroyed if they continue?

old comment by pete

Laughing Man asks, "What choice did they have - what other road have they not tried before?" Well, just off the top of my head:

What they have not tried is restoring full civil rights and representation to innocent, non-Jewish, Israeli citizens (who we call Palestinians).

They have not tried "turning the other cheek" by allowing non-Jewish Israelis to have a voice in their own government.

They have not tried renouncing claims to all lands seized by, highly questionable, military action.

They have not tried rewarding, and protecting, non-Jewish Israeli citizens for renouncing Hamas and other terrorist organizations.

They have not tried to win over the people of Gaza by allowing the full humanitarian aid to reach them in a timely manner.

They have not tried to allow Gaza to prosper, unencumbered by a siege.

old comment by Zabimaru

[I apologize if the following comment is hard to follow; I have quite a fever tonight, so my thoughts aren’t really collected :) Ignore me if it makes no sense :)]

One of my heroes is Isaac Asimov. As most of you probably know he was a hugely successful science fiction and science writer and an atheist of Jewish descent. Whenever there is a discussion I usually have some quote from him...

Unfortunately I can't find the exact quote now, but about the settling of Israel he said something close to "What are we doing? We're settling ourselves in a ghetto, surrounded on all sides by people who want to kill us. As long as Israel exists there will be trouble."

And he was right, there has been nothing but trouble. Many other Jews said the same things he did, saying that a Jewish nation shouldn't be formed there.
I respect Israel's right to exist, and certainly its people's right to survive. But the right to survival doesn't give you a free pass to do it wherever and however they want. It's true that Israel does exist now, and that there isn't much to say about that. But there is a lot to say about how they handled a situation they knew was going to arise.

The Palestinians haven't treated Israel well, but neither has Israel treated them well at all. Both sides feel that they are fighting for their country and their liberty, both feel that they have the right to defend themselves, but Israel has the support of most of the western world.

But still Israel is treated like some small, helpless victim. Even though they have enormous military might, and even though it is their treatment of their neighbor that allowed radical Hamas to take power there. I'm no friend of Hamas, but I just object to treating Israel as some innocent victim in all of this.

But, Laughing Man, this is what you seem to want to do. I think that's the reason you've been called a "Zionist troll".

When you talk about the possibility of Hamas bombing an Israeli school you express yourself as if this would be an evil act of coldblooded killers. But when we talk about the reality of Israel bombing a school, you say that this is an unfortunate accident.

When you talk about Palestinians killing civilians you imply that Palestinians in general celebrate when a civilian family killed in cold blood, but when you talk about the hundreds of civilians Israel has killed it's a necessary consequence of war.

You seem to claim that all the people in Israel are incredibly moral and just, but it was just a few days ago we had a quote from a Rabbi in Israel who thought that all the civilians of Gaza should be killed, and claimed that Palestinians are "born with a molotov cocktail in their hand". So apparently not all of the people of Israel want to spare civilian lives, and I think we all know that not all Palestinians want to kill civilians.

Both sides are stupid in this conflict, and both sides are doing stupid things. But in your rhetoric it seems like Israel can do nothing wrong, while everything the Palestinians do is wrong, which, I think, is a big part of the reason why people react so strongly to what you're saying. Maybe that’s not what you mean, but it is what it sounds like. It doesn't seem like you have a fair view of the situation at all.

old comment by Laughing Man

Pete to a lesser extent they have tired some of these things, and while I strongly disagree with them not allowing a full voice for its non-Jewish citizens in its government whenever it has lessened restrictions it has been bitten, suicide bombers attack when not stopped by roadblocks and check points. Have the Palestinians given the Israelis a reason to begin trusting them to move about freely or stabbed at them whenever given the chance? They live in a VERY different world over there. As for renouncing claims to land seized in what is most often a defensive military action they have released land - unoccupied territory and each and every time that land is then used to attack deeper and deeper into Israel.

Many of those suggestions could probably come to fruition if Palestinians renounced violence and would talk of real, and permanent peace. But to give a strategic piece of land to a people that would see you dead or to lift checkpoints on places where suicide bombers swarm out of is suicidal. To allow unrestricted access to your citizenry to a people who would see you dead would be like America inviting everybody from any hostile country in without security. IDEALLY yes you should do it but security for Israel's citizens must be their first priority.

How about some concessions from Hamas also like oh I don’t know, we wont send commandos over to murder civilian families, or fire rockets at you, or blow ourselves up in crowded café's. But the groups like Hamas are not interested in permanent peace, they have always rejected permanent peace agreements only those that are long enough for them to regroup and rearm.

old comment by Laughing Man

NO Israel is not without blame for atrocities in the past and I am sure in the future. I am say THIS TIME - THIS conflict would not have started had Hamas not started rocketing Israel after the last ceasefire.

I AM however saying of the 2 evils Hamas is the greater. With the express desire to wipe a people and country off of the face of the Earth.

YES there are individuals and groups in Israel that would kill all Palestinians if they had the chance - they are just as evil the difference is that the groups that feel that way DON’T run the show in Israel. The difference is they are NOT out there killing any Palestinian they can (even if they would like to).

THIS TIME - THIS CONFLICT it was Hamas that started it.

I would love to see peace in the area - Israel should give up some of the land it has ceased in past conflicts for a Palestinian state but BEFORE they can do this there has to be peace otherwise you give resources to those who are trying to kill you.

old comment by rw23

@Laughing Man: "I have no doubt that Israel responded to the rocket fire VERY quickly - their radar systems are EXTREMELY good and it is standard procedure for them to have a drone or manned aircraft over the launch point minutes after the rocket or mortar is fired."

Indeed so, and those Hellfire-wielding Predator drones would be great for targetting the actual thugs who are lobbing mortar rounds into civilian settlements in Israel. However, I fail to understand why, if the Israelis are "the good guys", their strategy time and again tends towards air strikes and artillery bombardments of residential areas. The casualty figures from this latest embroglio (1000 to 4, according to today's article in The Guardian) suggest that worries over "collateral damage" are not high amongst the IDF's concerns.

This pattern has been seen again and again. It becomes indefensible.

old comment by Tolpuddle Martyr

@ Laughing Man

Firstly, it isn't 1967 anymore. Some of Israel’s neighbours may well be hostile to it, others are more ambivalent, Husni Mubarak of Egypt seems to be as opposed to Hamas as Israel and the United States.
Second. Israel clearly planned the current assault (Operation Cast Lead) months in advance of its actual inception, so to label the current Israeli operations as purely reactive is disingenuous.
Reference:
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-12-29-six-months-of-planning-then-israel-moves-against-hamas
http://www.merip.org/mero/mero123108b.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4092577/Israeli-leaders-gamble-all-on-Gaza-invasion.html
Third, as this was the case it gives the Islamist Hamas militants absolutely zero incentive to suspend rocket attacks, "martyrdom operations" or assaults on Israeli settlers and soldiers in accordance with a ceasefire.
I reiterate, if reason and common sense are to prevail and fundamentalist nutcases to falter then the US, Israel, Europe, Egypt and the rest need to foster an environment where that can happen.
P.S. I have to say I find your attitude far more chilling than that bakerhorsepower’s. He and his ilk are operating under a religious delusion, you are not! A life is a life sir, Atheist, Muslim, Jew, Pagan or Christian, Israeli or Palestinian, and Israel’s wholly disproportionate response cannot be justified on the grounds of Hamas’s actions.

bakerhorsepower #fundie rr-bb.com

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