Let me put it this way: None of America's founding fathers supported – strongly or not – the notion of separation of church and state. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Bupkis.
If someone out there in Internet-land would like to challenge that statement, please simply provide some evidence. And please don't tell me about Thomas Jefferson's 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut. It is in this letter – and only in this letter – that any founder ever used the phrase "separation of church and state."
[Farrah then goes on to misinterpret Jefferson's Deism as Christianity and makes no mention of Jefferson's revision of the Bible to take out all the hocus-pocus]
36 comments
"History, I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
How about this for a change of pace? The separation of church and state is, in fact, a really good idea, regardless of what the founding fathers of the USA believed or did not. Since the USA began experimenting with an officially secular government, almost all successful western countries began to move in the same direction.
In addition to the letter to the Danbury Baptist Association there is the Treaty of Tripoli and most important of all the US Constitution Article 6, paragraph 3. Then there is the little matter of the words Jehovah, God, Jesus, Bible and Christianity appearing nowhere the Declaration of Independence, Constitution or Bill of Rights. And yes Jefferson & the most influential Founders were Deists.
Well, what about the first amendment?, the treaty of Tripoli?, can I go on?. By the way, it´s only a letter, like Galatians, Romans AND ALL THE SHIT YOU USE IN THE CHURCH TO TREAT WOMEN LIKE SLAVES.
I can't believe pbagosy submitted this without including this gem:When I hear statements like this, from people who have been around the block a time or two, I have to wonder if the man is knowingly lying in support of his perverted beliefs or whether he is hopelessly ignorant of history.
Joseph Farah accusing someone else of being ignorant of history. If that had been included, it would have been worthy of a Mirror, Mirror Award.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
C'mon, it's World Net Daily! These people make "National Enquirer" and "the Star" look like scions of journalistic integrity. Of course WND assumes their core audience is about the same IQ level(slightly above vegetable), and no one expects those people to be smart enough to look stuff up for themselves. So if you're WND, why not lie?
And please don't tell me about Thomas Jefferson's 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut.
Not a single one of them supported separation of church and state at all? Now the hell did that end up in the law then? Did some evil feminist lesbian sneak in and put it there while no-one was looking? Could the founding fathers then not find their eraser, and decide it would be a waste of time to rewrite it all?
Okay, then what about James Madison? From Wikipedia:Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state" (1819 letter to Robert Walsh). "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" (1811 letter to Baptist Churches)
And even if none of the founders had used it, it's still the law, and it's still a damn good idea. Now, please go study up on U.S. History a little more.
None of the first 6 presidents (Washington through J.Q. Adams) was anything like an orthodox Christian. Franklin was at most a deist. Like it or not, Thomas Paine was a founding father of the U.S. and he was certainly not a Christian. Read the writings of these men, before you spout off again. Your knowledge of the subject is next to None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Bupkis.
However, as one of the guys in the forum wrote in the newsletter section, no matter how much we quote these people, they don´t change their minds. Honestly, this guy is like Ann Coulter, they say all, not because they sincerely believe in it, but because they know that, no matter what they say, liberal or just moderate people will not pay attention to them and, conversely, many crackpots and conservatives will feel that they have a voice in the world.
Let me put it this way: None of America's founding fathers supported strongly or not the notion of separation of church and state. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Bupkis.
If someone out there in Internet-land would like to challenge that statement, please simply provide some evidence.
Treaty of Tripoli, asshole!
McCulloch
How about this for a change of pace? The separation of church and state is, in fact, a really good idea, regardless of what the founding fathers of the USA believed or did not. Since the USA began experimenting with an officially secular government, almost all successful western countries began to move in the same direction.
Forget it.
You're dealing with a person who assumes that every word of the Bible is literally true, to the point where if the Bible and reality disagree, it is reality that is wrong and not the Bible.
You don't expect him to treat the founding documents of the U.S. any differently, do you?
"Oh that evidence that proves me wrong? I don't count it."
Anyway there is one part of the Constitution that represents the notion of separation of church and state, " no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Article six course three, us Constitution. If they truely wanted America to be a Christian nation then they would require that all government officials prove they were Christian and not state clearly just the opposite.
Drops Mike.
With a sharp knife & glue, Thomas Jefferson raped your KJV to death.
Which is preserved in the Smithsonian Institute.
And not so much as seeing word one of 'God', 'Jesus', 'Creator' or 'Marriage' in the US Constitution.
If they were so sure as you are that your country is as 'Christian' as you claim it is - and church & state were indivisible - you'd have thought that they would have thrown those words around like confetti when they drew up what would become the very basis of your country. So why didn't they?
But like I say: not word one . Nada. Zip. Zilch. Bupka s.
They were forward -thinking, those Founding Fathers: they meant your country to be completely secular : religion has no right to exist in US politics. Like I say II: they were forward -thinking. I refer you to theocracies such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, and those areas controlled by ISIS.
You think that Church not Separated from State is such a great idea? So why are you lot so opposed to ISIS, then...?!
Enjoy your paradox.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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