Christianity and Authority
Want to turn someone off to Christianity immediately? Explain to them that it is a foundationally authoritarian religion.
It is. Really. Christ did not say "Follow your conscience"; he said "Follow me."
The Bible bristles with commandments and instructions, often to excruciating detail and with elaborate (and frequently violent) punishments for infractions. And it is soaked through with authoritarian imagery: crowns (of thorns), yokes (Christ's gentle one vs. the heavy one of sin), thrones, kingdoms and kings, Fathers and mothers.
Modern man hates all order and authority and therefore cannot tolerate this. So when he does not reject Christianity outright (95% of the time) in favor of either atheism or something that appeals to his instinct for solipsistic self-worship (e.g., Buddhism), he will try to rationalize this business away through flimsy neo-Marcionite heresies, declaring Christ to be the completion and perfection of the mean old fuddy-duddy God of the Old Testament. (For why exactly this is a heresy, consult John 10:30).
So Christianity is necessarily and foundationally authoritarian, and the logical consequence of this is that Catholicism, which adheres most closely to this authoritarian ideal, is a very easy religion to comprehend. The rules are laid out: simply follow them. If you don't like it, if you have doubts, just shut up and follow them, anyway. And it's for this reason that the talk of conscience in the present Catechism strikes me as especially dangerous. Nearly everyone nowadays is pregnant with the spirit of Protestantism and so interprets conscience to mean "whatever I intuit the good to be," which of course has led us to the present catastrophic collapse in the moral integrity of the Church. How many contracepting Catholics have I argued with who have cloaked themselves in the armor of "conscience" and thereby rendered themselves invincible to every appeal to reason, tradition, Scripture, and Catechism? I've lost count. Conscience has become the dagger with which Catholic quislings backstab the bride of Christ. In practice it is not much more than the will to disbelieve.
When I try to explain this -- even to Catholics -- I'm invariably accused of conformity and blind submission. All of which is not only absolutely true but absolutely mandatory of all Christians, which has precisely been my point all along!
Submit to God's will completely and without reservation and be saved, or insist on your autonomy and rot in Hell. It shouldn't be a hard choice.
78 comments
Want to turn someone off to Christianity immediately? Explain to them that it is a foundationally authoritarian religion.
Oh good, keep going then.
I am assuming that you are American. It's a damn good thing that our founders did not have your attitude and did not follow the bible when they were discussing rebellion. If they did they would have submitted to the authority appointed over them, its in the bible look it up, and we would possibly still be part of England.
History is full of people with this exact mindset. They ran the secret police organizations that indiscriminately sent millions of people to the gulags or the gas chambers. They did this unflinchingly because they blindly followed the orders of whatever dictator was pulling the strings without ever pondering if maybe, just maybe, there might be something morally wrong about the orders they've been given.
If the Bible is supposedly inspired by a perfect being, the morals inside should be timeless and intuitively obvious. The fact that proph has to resort to blind obedience shows just where those morals come from - ancient men who lived in a largely uncivilized culture.
The god of the old testament isn't a fuddy duddy. He's a genocidal psychopath.
Besides, doesn't the Bible say the debt of sin was already paid? So why do you need to go around acting like a douche and bothering people about it?
All of which is not only absolutely true but absolutely mandatory of all Christians, which has precisely been my point all along!
And this leads to bloodshed, war and genocide. But I'm pretty sure you already know this, and somehow I don't think you mind.
According to you, GOD is a dick!
I refuse to follow your Demiurgic Devil called "Bible-God".
Jesus was cool, I can relate to His version of things, His take on Deity, His moral & ethical teachings....however the manmade lies & distortions of Deity by the post-Babylonian Exile Pharassidical composers of the OT (mosty bogus, rewriten when the original was LONG lost) THAT JESUS TRIED TO CORRECT are a steaming pile of FRESH MANURE!
So, in the style of an old Johnny Paycheck tune - TAKE YER GAWD & SHOVE IT! I AIN'T WORSHIPPING HIM NO MORE!
Finally, I'M NEOPAGAN & PROUD! EAT MY SHORTS!
"The rules are laid out: simply follow them. If you don't like it, if you have doubts, just shut up and follow them, anyway."
Let me think about that...how about 'no'!
I love how this guy has pointed out everything that is wrong with religion/christianity and still somehow manages to be a christian anyway.
How could someone explicitly WANT to be part of a totalitarian regime?
This started so well, and I was wondering what it was doing here. Then I reached the fourth paragraph, and by the middle of the fifth I didn't even have the energy for a facepalm. How someone can retain such cognitive dissonance and still be able to use a computer, I have no idea.
"The rules are laid out: simply follow them. If you don't like it, if you have doubts, just shut up and follow them, anyway."
Thank you for a brilliant example of how destructive many religions are, and why they will always fight science, curiosity and inquiry to the bitter end.
"...which of course has led us to the present catastrophic collapse in the moral integrity of the Church."
Which I'm sure has nothing whatsoever to do with all those priests fucking children.
Agreed that it's not a hard choice at all. I insist on my autonomy. However, there is no hell, so I will be rotting in the ground instead. As will you. Meanwhile, life is good!
@ SpukiKitty:
My sentiments exactly. BTW, I love that you ended it with EAT MY SHORTS . Haven't heard that in years. I actually LOLed! :o)
Remember the song? "Choke on polished cotton, eat my shorts..."
No, if you really want to turn someone off to Christianity you should point out all the atrocities ordered or committed by the god of the bible. Or you could simply point out all of the contradictions the bible has with itself and with reality.
On another note, I'm wondering if this is the same proph that supports bullying. I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
EDIT:
Yes, it's the same twisted sociopath.
"Submit to God's will completely and without reservation and be saved, or insist on your autonomy and rot in Hell. It shouldn't be a hard choice."
So you admit it. God should only be worshipped out of fear and in order to save your ass.
So God is douchebag, and so is proph. Nice to see the subhumans worship the divine equivalent of Hitler. Have fun wasting your lives on an imaginary dictator, dumbasses; because we all share the same fate when we die: death.
So God is douchebag, and so is proph. Nice to see the subhumans worship the divine equivalent of Hitler. Have fun wasting your lives on an imaginary dictator, dumbasses; because we all share the same fate when we die: death.
Interesting. You could replace the world "Christian" with "Muslim" in this screed and it would still work perfectly. After all, "Islam" means "submission," and proph is clearly a fan of submission. So, essentially, it seems that there really is no significant difference between fanatical Christianity and fanatical Islam.
But then, we all knew that.
#1406909
But that's the beauty of authoritarian thinking, you don't have to appeal to anyone nor argue your position. As proph said, just shut and follow them anyway.
A fine example of everything that's wrong with religion.
"Submit to God's will completely and without reservation and be saved, or insist on your autonomy and rot in Hell. It shouldn't be a hard choice."
So you admit it. God should only be worshipped out of fear and in order to save your ass.
Wow. This is a very valuable piece of writing, because it is, for whatever neurotic reason, honest, and therefore incredibly revealing of the authoritarian religious mindset.
This person wants to follow rules. He doesn't want to bother with thought. He wants to be told what to do. That relieves him from the anxiety of all that doubt. He can be like a child. He can be like a robot.
Trying to live like a free human being and listen to his own conscience and his own heart and mind fills him with such anxiety that he prefers to put someone else in charge of his life. It's sad.
But very psychologically revealing!
@Brendan: Careful. I think it would be more accurate to say that authoritarian communism and Abrahamic religion has a similar power structure, which I think is your point. This pyramidal hierarchy structure is found in capitalist, communist, religious, and non-religious countries and it is THE problem.
So when he does not reject Christianity outright (95% of the time) in favor of either atheism or something that appeals to his instinct for solipsistic self-worship (e.g., Buddhism), he will try to rationalize this business away through flimsy neo-Marcionite heresies
Why do these people believe that everybody thinks about religion 24/7?
He left out the most prevalent option, i.e. that most people don't think about religion at all, ever, couldn't give a shit about Christianity, and couldn't be arsed to actively reject or accept any aspect of it.
When you "explain to them that it [chistianity] is a foundationally authoritarian religion" they'll just reply "ok, whatever" and go back to FaceBook, Twitter, American Idol, or whatever foolish nonsense they were busy with.
And I couldn't give a shit that they do.
"Submit to God's will completely and without reservation and be saved, or insist on your autonomy and rot in Hell. It shouldn't be a hard choice."
Ya know what? The man's right, it isn't a hard choice.
Autonomy, any day. True goodness, true nobility can only come from choice, from autonomy. Codifying ethics into law does not make evil people good.
This guy hits the nail on the head with everything that's wrong about Christianity. It's morality is not based on compassion or empathy, but on obedience to authority. In the Beatudes Jesus says that if you are merciful then God will be merciful to you, but if you are unmerciful then God will not show you mercy. Jesus understands that mercy is good, but not why, and so he simply threatens us to obey.
With this in mind it's no wonder why Christians say shit like "If there were no Hell I would go on a murder spree." it's because they do not understand why murder and rape or bad beyond any context of they are bad because my authority figure says they are bad. This kind of morality stunts the moral growth of the individual, and coupled with the belief that all humans are born inherently evil, it leaves you as a coward and a sheep.
@Osiris
It's also sociopathic {or at least assumes that you are a sociopath). This guy talks about following your conscience as if it's a bad thing. No, don't follow your conscious. Simply follow our rules and don't trust in your own understanding. Sound familular?
Proph here assumes that everyone is like him, someone who has to be told what to do to get through life.
solipsistic self-worship (e.g., Buddhism)
The very basis of Buddhism is letting go of your ego. You couldn't be more wrong if you sat down and practiced in advance.
Oh goody, he's one of THOSE guys.
He doesn't care if what 'God' wants is moral or just, all he cares about is getting on the right side of the meanest tyrant so he can lick his boots enough to escape punishment.
Pure self interest.
Catholic Fail:
When a Catholic finds that even the teachings and dogma of the Church conflict with his or her conscience, the Church accepts that it is morally justifiable to follow one's conscience (though interestingly, it reserves the right to punish for the breach of the law: the point is that if you're right, God will do the sorting out).
So shove it up yer arse, half-baked pseudo-intellectual apologist for abdication of your God-given faculties of self-determination!
"So when he does not reject Christianity outright (95% of the time) in favor of either atheism or something that appeals to his instinct for solipsistic self-worship (e.g., Buddhism)"
Wouldn't this suggest that 95% of the USA are either atheists or Buddhists? I might be mistaken, but I THINK that's not entirely the case...
Yes, Jesus said 'follow me'...then he went around breaking every other Old Testament law.
I think even Jesus would be facepalming right now. This is what atheists (and many Christians) mean when we say you are worshiping Church tradition and your holy book the Bible, instead of worshiping God.
So..be a slave or suffer for your independence?
...I know there's a Civil War joke here somewhere, but I'm just too exhausted right now.
For all that this condemns people deciding for themselves what is right and wrong, this exactly the sort of rant I associate with people who use "Do what God says without question" to mean "Do what I say without question." Unless God starts actively speaking to people (assuming He even exists at all), no one can know for sure what He really wants. So you can submit completely to the will of another flawed human being, or insist on your autonomy and decide for yourself what the best way to live your life is. It shouldn't be a hard choice.
@ Nagol, you shoulda left out the part about the Bible contradicting itself, since it doesn't. As a result, your whole post is suspect.
Ahhh...the "Doctor Doom/General Zod/Darkseid/Ming The Merceless" School of apologetics & evangelism!
image image image image
On a semi-related note, anyone think that one of Ming's goons, Klytus from "Flash Gordon" looked like Doctor Doom?image
You hate men who don't enjoy submission to authoritarianism as much as you do?
Tell me again about how much you enjoy the freedom of speech brought to you by a nation formed from men who despised an authoritarian regime and decided to rebel...
That's right. He said "follow me". And what were His teachings? Help the poor and the "least among you". Forgive. Turn the other cheek, etc., etc.---which is essentially all about obeying one's conciensce.
He did NOT say to follow what's in the Old Testament, or the New Testament, which didn't yet exist, or the teachings of Paul, or anyone else, which is what the Bible is. Nor did He talk about contraceptives, or gays, or abortion, or any of your other fundie obsessions.
So where's your blind obedience to His authority? Have you given away all of your wealth to the poor? You're voting Republican so you can starve the poor, stop them from getting healthcare, persecute gays, and keep women in the backseat.
So, like you said, His rules were laid out, and you're actions are contrary to every one of them. It looks like the "insisting on autonomy" is on the other foot, isn't it?
"If you don't like it, if you have doubts, just shut up and follow them, anyway"
One of the many reasons why religion is horrible.
"Submit to God's will completely and without reservation and be saved, or insist on your autonomy and rot in Hell. It shouldn't be a hard choice."
It's not a hard choice, not one little bit difficult. The decision could not be more spectacularly obvious...
Go fuck yourself, proph.
@Reynardine: I feel much the same way; if Heaven and Hell exist to begin with, but Heaven is full of boring sycophants, what's the incentive to go there?
Mark Twain said it best (not first, but probably best and most memorably) when he said "Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."
You're right! It's not a hard choice! Hell is awesome! For proof, I offer up a series of porn stories a friend of mine wrote, because they're at least as valid to base a worldview on as a series of war stories a bunch of bronze-age people wrote.
So much of Christianity has been adapted from other sources that I am literally amazed that people still take the Bible seriously as a completely authentic historical record. It makes it doubly dangerous when you see people like proph here, giving up his entire will to God and encouraging others to do the same. God can tell people to absolutely anything and it can all be justified through careful biblical interpretation. God told Peter Sutcliffe to murder prostitutes. Also, I read about a guy in America who was apparently told by God to burn down any DVD rental outlets who hired out porn DVDs. Hopefully the only place he can contact God now is in the prison chapel. And of course that leads us on to the wonderful Gerald Polley. God even told him to write to the Pope to ask for a pair of work trousers!
It brings to mind a picture, captioned "The word of Christ: surprisingly similar to one's personal opinion actually"...
Submit to God's will completely and without reservation and be saved, or insist on your autonomy and rot in Hell.
But we don't actually know what God's will is, or even if He exists. What you really mean is "trust me: if you submit to one of 40,000 different opinions (namely, mine) about God's will, I think you'll be saved; or insist on your autonomy and I think you'll rot in Hell."
Want to turn someone off to Christianity immediately? Explain to them that it is a foundationally authoritarian religion.
I've often said that Christians are doing the most to turn people away from their religion than anything atheists could ever do.
1. There are such people as independent Christians...God gave us free will!
2. Heresy, huh? Ooohhh, I'm terrified! (Drops to knees) Don't report me to the Inquisition Office, I beg you!!!!
P.S. I'm a Christian and I think for myself...so go step on a Lego!!!
I think he's borrowing from Proverbs 3:5-6:
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will straighten your path."
Which I'd be willing to do, if, y'know, he actually SAID something.
Considering that this is the same "proph" who supports bullying, I don't think it's a stretch to believe that he's a sexual submissive who cannot rationalise that with his belief in masculine dominance, and thus funnels his need to submit into his Catholicism.
As a fellow submissive, I can only pity the fellow.
As a fellow Catholic, I just want to smack him.
Seriously, dude? We have free will for a reason. If God wanted blind faith, Eve wouldn't have been able to eat the apple and invent pants. If he wanted blind submission, neither Lilith nor the Fallen Angels would have ever existed.
*shrugs* He works in mysterious, writerly ways.
His is the kind of god Hitler would love.
Sorry, proph, but god is NOT a fascist, however much you'd love him to be.
Also, we can't 'rot' in Hell, can we? We'd burn, not rot.
I have real issues with folks who portray christianity as a religion that says 'follow all the rules, or god will damn you!
Mankind cannot and never will be able to 'follow all the rules', as this man portrays them. That's why god sent us Jesus, to make forgiveness possible.
This man is heartless and vindictive.
And anyone who wants to gloat over seeing their enemies damned to hell is walking a very dangerous path. (judge not, and you will not be judged. For in the measure you judge others, that's how you yourselves will be judged). (read that in a book somewhere).
Don't tell us. Tell your brothers and sisters who are insisting that Objectivism and Christianity are not merely compatible, but rather identical.
If you're having trouble finding them, we can provide you with links.
No, modern man doesn't hate authority, we just question it. If the authority is deserved, we have no problem with it, but we will NOT follow blindly then either. We reject Christianity because it makes no sense, and yes, because we have actually read the Bible (perhaps not all of it; I know I get bored somewhere in Leviticus and have to take a break), and thought about what it says.
Buddhism is closer to Nature-worship than to self-worship.
No, it's not easy, as a lot of rules and commandments contradict each other. Thou shalt not kill, on the one hand, but Kill all Amalekites; man, woman, child, ox and sheep, on the other hand. Thou shalt not lie, but the Religious Right talking heads lie all the time.
No wonder religion loses ground every day...
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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