Tell you what - when you stop calling Christianity a "religion" we'll stop calling atheism a "faith". Until then, we remain at an impasse.
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"Tell you what - when you stop calling Christianity a "religion" we'll stop calling atheism a "faith". Until then, we remain at an impasse."
Not really. Y'see, 'call Atheism a "faith "' (when we Atheists know for a fact that it isn't )...?:
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...whereas on the other hand, when you fundies refer to your 'faith' as a 'personal relationship with Christ', and not a 'religion', tell you what: you want to make that call to the IRS - re. Christianity's tax exemption as a 'religion' - or shall I...?! >:D
'Impasse'? Checkmate, more like.
(BTW, check out the next page; the post by 'Forum Cunt' Napoleon. I nearly lost it with his prime example of hyper-snarkiness! Nice one! b^_^d )
Oh, look, it's one of those "personal relationship with JC" types.
If it has a central dogma, combined with a belief in supernatural, then it's a religion. End of story.
Oh I see, it's not a religion, it's a "Relationship"?
Of so the bible is not a holy book it is a "Relationship Guide"?
Your pastor is not a priest but a "Relationship Councillor"?
Your Church is not a temple it is a "Relationship Guidence Center"?
Christmas isn't a holiday it's a day off to "Work on your relationship"?
See how far we can stretch that metaphor?
If Christianity is not a religion, then I guess the largest religion on Earth is Islam. Is that how you want it, Aractus?
How can atheism be a faith, when all it is, is a lack of belief in deities?
Christianity is a religion. If you think otherwise, then you have misunderstood the meaning of the word "religion", and should consult your nearest dictionary for help.
Atheism is not a faith. It is defined by an absence of faith. If atheism is a faith, then OFF is a TV channel, and "bald" is a hair color.
Atheism is not a faith (or even a lack of faith, necessarily) - it's a label. All it means is that a given person doesn't believe or have faith in god(s). That's it. Atheists still believe in things, they still have faith - just not in the existence of god(s).
Christianity, however, is a religion. Not because atheists started calling it one, but because it involves a holy book, a moral belief system which revolves around a god or prophet, and a set of rituals/holy days/etc.
As others have pointed out, we can certainly stop calling Christianity a religion if you want, but then you lose all those benefits you get with it being called a religion - the First Amendment, tax-exempt status, etc.
"Tell you what - when you stop calling Christianity a 'religion' we'll stop calling atheism a 'faith'."
Open a dictionary, jackass.
"Until then, we remain at an impasse."
Fine. You wait here at the impasse and I'll go find someone sensible to talk to.
I'm happy to stop calling christianity a 'religion'. 'A plagiarised jumble of incompatible late Bronze-Age myths, twisted to suit the personal agendas of the immoral at the expense of the unintelligent' is more accurate.
Oh, and the prefix 'A' in 'Atheism' means 'without', dumbass.
@Alleyprowler:
No it's because religious people make religion look bad, so to avoid that stain on their image, religious people claim to not be doing religion.
Another reason is to distinguish their real religion from the dozen false religions that resemble it.
But Christianity is a religion. If you disagree, take it up with Webster, who defines religion as a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith .
I'll have to agree that atheism is in a sense faith. It's faith that one has in believing that a god does not exist. Guess we're staying in the impasse...
That's silly. Christianity is a religion as long as you're speaking English and not making up your own definition of the word. Atheism is not a religion. It's a label of convenience that we use for the absence of belief. Non-existence isn't a property like color or weight. The absence of belief isn't a belief with the property of non-existence.
Faith is not mere inductive reasoning. When you drop something, you expect it to fall, because inductive reasoning tells you that things have always fallen before and will continue to do so, even though there's no way to deductively prove that things will fall in the future. That's not "faith". Faith is the belief in the existence of something without any inductive evidence of its existence.
Let's examine this, shall we?
Atheism has no religious leaders, statements of faith, religious texts, tithes or arbitrary sets of rules all adherents must live by. There is no central figure, no miracle to proclaim and no postmortem consequences. Atheism is not recognized as a religion by the UN, the US government or any other governing body. Atheists do not get tax exempt status simply for getting together once a week. It makes no claims about the 'soul' or the 'spirit'.
Until it starts doing those things, it can not be considered either a faith or a religion.
Christianity, however, embodies all of those things and is most certainly a religion. The world recognizes it as a religion, early christians and Gnostics recognized it as a religion, the only ones who try to pretend it isn't are dumbass fundies who lamely attempt to pass it off as 'a personal relationship with their god' in order to make it more palatable to potential converts.
If it isn't a religion you may want to let the rest of the world know so that people can stop tithing and the government(s) can revoke your tax-exempt status.
Ugh, are people really going along with Bill O'Reilly's stupid "Christianity is a philosophy, not a religion" thing?
Anyway sure. Let's get the IRS involved if you're not a religion.
I, for one, like my atheism being called a faith, it imparts strength and well-being. There's strength in chuckles and positive vibes in laughter. Thanks to all you irreligious Christians.
Someone else in the thread said that non-belief in unicorns was also a faith according to this fellow's logic.
Because some people who call themselves Atheists have a faith-based position (belief in the non-existence of gods,) I don't really like that they are lumped in with those who do not have a faith-based position (lack of belief in gods.) The two arguments seem so much alike, yet represent totally different ways of thinking.
Okay, I'll stop calling your religion a religion and call it a delusion instead.
Fundies: They don't know what words mean.
Atheism is indeed a faith child, just not a faith in god(s). As for Christianity, you can refer to it by whatever fancy term you wish, it is still going to remain exactly what it is; a dying system of belief that went obsolete centuries ago.
@John
Faith is not mere inductive reasoning. When you drop something, you expect it to fall, because inductive reasoning tells you that things have always fallen before and will continue to do so, even though there's no way to deductively prove that things will fall in the future. That's not "faith". Faith is the belief in the existence of something without any inductive evidence of its existence.
To an extent I agree with you - but I don't think theists would see your argument quite the same way. Faith in this sense is more like acting without certainty. For example, if you drive to work every day, over a bridge, you probably leave the house expecting to arrive at work in one piece. While intellectually, you know things like car accidents happen at certain rates, and bridges fail, you still confidently expect that you'll make it to work in one piece. Yes, certain things can mitigate the chances of not getting into an accident (defensive driving, not speeding, etc), and you can check up on who built the bridge and whether or not it's up to code (but be honest, how likely is it that any of us have done that with every bridge we've had to cross), but there's still that chance something could go wrong.
The fact that you still leave the house every morning confident that you'll make it to work in one piece is faith. It doesn't involve a belief in a diety (or even the supernatural), but it's still faith.
Great. Let me know when the IRS can come pay your no-longer-tax-exempt organization a visit. They're gonna need to have a chat about some money owed.
Oh what? It's a religion now? Well glory hallelujah, it's a MIRACLE!
Our Parliament not just stopped calling the 'Church' of $cientology a 'religion', it was never allowed that appelation in the first place. Thus the Orgs etc here have rto pay tax on their income (course/Auditing fees, masquerading as 'donations') to HM Inland Revenue.
Like I say, you want to make that call to the IRS, or shall I...?!
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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