Mike Argon: How about starting where you should start, without assuming anything, saying I do not know, then looking at the evidence? You know, like rational people do?
Eric Hovind: It is impossible to start with no assumptions. In order to even begin I have to assume rational thought, I have to assume consistent and universal laws of science, and so many other things. That's why it's important to have the right starting point. One that can account for rational thought. Atheism and naturalism or evolution can not ground the very concept of rational thought.
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The idea of life forming around the laws of physics and environmental pressures can't account for orderly, considered thought? THE most useful ability that a lifeform in such a situation could have can't come about from that situation?
The greatest irony in all of this is that you are utterly incapable of the very thing you claim as your exclusive domain.
Yay Eric! You made it until the very last sentence until, with a stunning non sequitur , you went right off the rails into the crazy patch.
B+. Eric has improved but can do much better, I'm sure. Please make an appointment to see me after school.
"Rational thought" is a process you engage in, some something that exists outside of yourself, Eric. And consistent laws of science are not an arbitrary assumption, either, but the result of our observations. We assume the laws of science are consistent and universal because that assumption produces results. In other words, science works, bitches.
Besides, the Bible states quite clearly that the universe does not obey consistent natural laws. Instead, nature acts however Yahweh wants it to act. Rain does not fall in accordance with the water cycle, but rather when Yahweh wishes to either provide rain or flood someone. Earthquakes are not the result of plate tectonics, but the result of Yahweh throwing a childish temper righteous justice tantrum because of the gays. Mental diseases are not caused by brain development, but by demons. And so on and so on. It is true that the early Catholic Church did adopt Plato and Aristotle's views of the universe as rational, but the Protestant Reformation, with its emphasis on reading the Bible literally and taking it as the end all be all authority, did away with that.
That's why it's important to have the right starting point.
How do you determine the right starting point, Eric?
One that can account for rational thought.
OK, so let's hear your account for rational thought. You and your BFF Sye Ten Bruggencate have been making this claim for several years, but you have yet to actually show how you account for rational thought, or demonstrate that your explanation is the only one possible.
Atheism and naturalism or evolution can not ground the very concept of rational thought.
Nor do they claim to. Atheism is simply the negative answer the question "Do you believe in a God?" For example; you don't believe in the God of Zoroastrianism, therefore you are an atheist with respect to Zoroaster. Accounting for rational though has nothing to do with theism or atheism. Maybe that's why you haven't been able to back up your claim?
It is impossible to start with no assumptions.
Strictly speaking, this is true. However, proper science keeps assumptions to the absolute minimum, so it only starts with two:
1) The universe exists.
2) It is possible to learn something about it.
That is the only 'universal laws of science'. Everything else, including all previous work by any and all previous scientists, is only really provisionally taken to be true, until such time solid evidence emerges that it isn't.
The scientific disciplines are built on results, they are not assumptions they are testing perimeters. And I fucking well know you and your father knows this, oh yeah, your daddy used to coin that same shit "We both have the same evidences, we just interpret them differently" He'd say, then go on to misrepresent or deny those evidences.
You can in fact start with assumptions in science but it's insistent that you test those assumptions. If rationalism was God given why aren't you born with it? Testing tells us why, all evidence points to an accumulation of knowledge to build a base for rational thought.
@emau99
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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