I hate to be the one that points it out, but in the history of humanity, from the native American tribes in early North America to Islam and Christianity, theocracy has been the most successful form of governance. Throughout recorded and pre-recorded history, the single most common element in all civilizations is the use of religion as an integral element of laws and government.
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He's not wrong in that correlation, but he has his cause and effect backwards. Religion is a great tool for an aspiring civilization, providing it with unity, self-justification, and an easy way to ostracize unwanted elements of society.
What he misses however is the direction that this control flows. Scholars of religious history will note that while doctrine parallels what the government wants, it flourishes, and when it runs contrary to the government, some excuse is found to change the doctrine, or it's outlawed and driven from its place.
Theocracy can be just fantastic if your in the majority/share the religion of your rulers.
What happens to everyone else? Not so successful anymore.
I'd say if you want to see how great a country is, look how it treats its weakest members. -someone great probably quoted something similar.
If what you desire is a controlling state which fails to uphold the freedom and rights of it`s citizens. The highest(by living standards and citizen happines and tbh that is all that matters) states on the face of the earth succeded in making their people understand and internalise their laws, never enforced them with brutality, violence and absolutes.
Cynical fuckheads never realise it`s not their place to force others into their systems.
Being used a lot doesn't make it successful. Bloodletting and magic rituals were used a lot throughout those same periods. They didn't do anything to cure anyone's plague or end any famines. Guess what else has been falling out of favor.
Theocracy is not government. Theocracy is what you get when government is replaced with uncompromising, unthinking obedience to rules and taboos with little to no actual justification beyond "someone told us the invisible, mute but all-powerful man told them so in private". You want to blindly obey your glorified ancient Harry Potter series? Go for it. But keep it to yourself. Most of us prefer our government to think about the issues our society faces rather than looking to a book written by bronze age goatherders who heard voices in their heads for guidance on industrial regulation, digital media and genetic research. Indeed most of us are frankly already disappointed by how little thinking they do as it is.
You'd think if it were the most successful, then Europe would have remained under control of the Catholic church and there would be many, many theocracies today instead of a few Middle Eastern shitholes where rights are routinely curtailed.
..." theocracy has been the most successful form of governance."
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Burning your failures is a great recipe for success! Stoning, hanging, it's all good! The end justifies the means. We've temporarily lost that ability thanks to a bunch of bleeding heart Libbruls, but don't worry, we'll get it back.
The native American tribes did kill each other a lot, though. Then there was the various Protestant vs Catholic shite, and let's not forget the Crusades.
We had sort of a theocracy in Britain once. The bloke in charge killed millions of Catholics, banned Christmas and outlawed football. After a few years we said 'sod it' and let the king come back (incidentally, Charles II was also something of a footy fan), and despite a falling-away of power in the last couple of centuries the monarchy is still here.
Well, the US has never been a theocracy, so I guess it's never been successful or a civilization.
Why is it that advocates of theocracy always assume that it will be their particular cult that will be in charge?
But Tim, what if that theocracy means the one you don't agree with? I bet if our government was run like that of say...some Middle East countries...where you would be put in prison or executed for not being one of them, you wouldn't think it was a good idea.
So, yeah, I think this is fundie, but not for the reasons most would. There IS something fundamentally theocratic with most governments throughout history, because of the ways humans operate.
As an American, we see a lot about the Constitution. I've come to see it as a worship of the document, a document which claims to have answers but which doesn't show its work: It claims self-evidence of its "truths" no differently than older religions... But that's not how knowledge works. It doesn't show its philosophical work. It doesn't help that philosophy and it's underpinnings have become much more refined, and have shifted from where it was over 200 years ago
Instead, it has what any other religion has, in that it contains small truths and many deep flaws, as evidenced by the fact that theocrats are today using it as their rally point against secular philosophies of government.
Instead of eliminating theocracy, by not showing their philosophical work and allowing the entire basis of the document and defense of laws to mutate around a different CORE philosophy, by only allowing amendment in distal parts of the document, they just created a new theology, and even though it was more effective, it is still a government based on mere belief.
Ahem, witch burnings, the crusades, aztec human sacrifice, religion has done a lot more harm then good.
That's what made America the foremost bastion of freedom in the history of the world, Tim - the public, written declaration of the fact that religion is a personal decision. Regulating it is, quite simply, a THOUGHT CRIME; you cannot control the conscience of a fellow human being. You want to go back to "pre-recorded history"? I'd prefer not to go back any further than the time our constitution was written, thankyewverymuch.
I hate to point this out Tim but as someone finishing his History degree, theocracy has not been the most successful form of governance. In fact in Europe, America, Asia, Middle East, far East history shows that other forms of government works better than Theocracy. The best example is probably the Ottoman Empire, and they collapsed, other than that they don't last for too long. Still Tim I look forward to the United States of Islam you hope for.
So why did so many intelligentsia get all misty over the Roman Republic? They had a state religion, but it was borrowed from the Greeks, and they added foreign gods over the centuries. Up to our Founding Fathers it was a model to aspire to and whisper about behind the Church's back. There haven't actually been many true theocracies, and they were indistinguishable from dictatorships. The Egyptians? The Inca? The priestly class has had more or less power depending on the strength of the autocrats - if Louis XIV had wanted to get rid of Cardinal Richelieu, he would have.
The use of religion as an integral element of laws and government is not theocracy. Only an ignoramus would claim that the France of Louis XIV was a theocracy. When the entirety of the state is built around religion, that is a theocracy. So, compare the rule of the Medici to the theocrat Savonarola in fifteenth century Florence; no, theocracy was not the most successful form of governance.
The only good theocracy is mine.
(Seriously though, even the Ottoman empire's jurisprudence allowed for other religions to coexist and follow their own religious laws.)
Theocracy, being all religions and all beliefs and the practices and dogmas inherent in all of them, isn't A political or social order at all. There's 1000s and they're all over the place.
Quick history lesson dimwit, the Christian wanted to convert the Native, most thought force was the right way (don't they always? show us otherwise) One of the first things America had to do was stop them good noble Christian from witch-hunts, land grabs and arbitrary hangings.
I myself can't think of a single theocratic country that wasn't a hellhole enslaved torture state.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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