jwomble #fundie

jwomble #fundie fundamentalforums.com

((On why offending God merits eternal suffering))

It is His position, I hope this isn't too poor of an analogy...

You are walking down the street and you are in a pretty poor mood, you bump into a homeless man, in your frustration you shove him to the ground- because of his status nothing really happens to you.

Same scenario, but you bump into me ( a regular guy) I call the police and maybe you get a fine and probation.

Same scenario, but you bump into the president- if you are not shot by the secret service- you will go to prison.

it is not just the offense- it is the rank of the person you have sinned against.

47 comments

old comment by Allegory for Jesus

Here's the deal: the scenario that you gave was based upon a view of law that is based upon unjust, unequal treatment and hierarchical privilege that should have no bearing on ideal morality. Just because there are more people who are willing to punish you harsher for the same crime against a person of progressively higher social rank does not make it a worse action ethically. Assault is assault is assault, regardless of who you are assailing. It will remain wrong or justified for the same reasons, regardless of the stature of the victim. To assume that your God should be granted untouchability, since it logically follows from the warped justice system of a nearly feudal conception of society, is only correct if you assume that God supports such inequality. I would certainly hope that you would not...

old comment by Mayhem

"You are walking down the street and you are in a pretty poor mood, you bump into a homeless man, in your frustration you shove him to the ground- because of his status nothing really happens to you."

Yeah. Pretty much.

"Same scenario, but you bump into me ( a regular guy) I call the police and maybe you get a fine and probation."

No, the police tell you "Sorry, but we deal with REAL crimes, go cry into your booze."

"Same scenario, but you bump into the president- if you are not shot by the secret service- you will go to prison."

No, I would be tackled by them, but that's not going to happen, since I would never be able to get close enough to the President to bump him in the first place.

old comment by Patashu

There are problems with this analogy. One is that they are all human; shoving them down is a sign of aggression or of assault and a risk to their livelyhood. You cannot assault God or risk his livelyhood; in fact, nothing you can do could ever hope to harm him in the slightest. Humans need laws and police to cut down on crimes, but what does God need justice for?

An ideal measure of how much one should be punished would be more along the lines of how much harm you have caused X how much worth the people or places or things you have harmed have. When you find something that does harm to God let me know. (And, no, zero times infinity is still zero.)

“it is not just the offense- it is the rank of the person you have sinned against.”
That’s stupid. If i steal $60 from someone living in a shelter, that’s a substantial amount, maybe everything he’s got in cash.
If i steal $60 from Trump, and don’t tell him, he’ll never notice it.
I should be punished MORE for robbing the homeless man, as that act has significant repercussions on his life.

But that’s punishment.
Hell isn’t punishment.
If i steal $60 and do two months in jail, that’s an attempt to convince me not to steal in the future. Some punishments, i get an opportunity to convince a parole board that I’ve learned my lesson and can be trusted out in society again. Even if i get life in prison for a crime, it eventually ends.

Hell doesn’t end.
Hell doesn’t allow people to get out and demonstrate their behavior is improved.
Hell is eternal, even if we repent our actions instantly.
The only reason I’m atheist is a total lack of compelling evidence for any gods. On judgment day, I receive that evidence I need. I’ll repent before I even get to Hell. Certain after the flames rise. But there’s no appeal to an updated status.

Punishments on Earth vary by the crime. Some prisons are harder than others, some sentences are worse due to the nature of the crime. But my suffering, even after I repent, will be the same as Hitler’s if he’s still convinced he did the right thing. And between us, the little girl whose parents never even heard of Jesus, thus she died without him in her heart, she’s got the same Eternal Suffering to look forward to.

Justifying Hell strikes me as a pretty sociopathic thing to do.
LOOKING FORWARD to sitting on your cloud and watching other human beings being eternally tortured for no good reason and to no end, that’s psychotic.

jwomble #fundie fundamentalforums.com

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