actually the USSR was a conservative force compared to Zio-capitalist America.
16 comments
No no no, you're doing this all wrong!
*Churchill was initially very supportive of nazi accomplishments.
If you want the outrageous to be plausible, come up with some facts!
Very "meh"
If conservative with a small "c" is meant in the sense of resistant to social innovation then this is true and it is also true that the cold war was not in the best interests of the USA and Europe.
"Zio-capitalist" is OD's kneejerk racism
What Thrutch said. Conservatism is resistance to change or unwillingness to change (from Latin "conservare", to conserve), we have mostly used the word orthodox for such thought in communism, but it absolutely makes sense to use to describe slow social reform in a communist country.
@jsonitsac : That's a nice piece of American Folk tale, but it really isn't true. First of all not all communists are equal - for example both Allende and Dupcek were communists, both prefered democratic means to establish a communist society and favored them in practice. The same goes for Luxemburgists - who had considerable influence on the New Left.
*Ironicly, without a Marxian world revolution and with that system of purges in limbo, you arrive and a constantly oppressive society, which opens the door for capitalist govenments to equate you to people you are diametrically opposed to you, and for the gullible Average Joe who doesn't have time to work himself into the material, to believe this bullshit. Why a university professor - if she actually had anything to do with politics, and wasn't just voicing her opinion on something she had no clue about what she was talking about (which it sounds like), doesn't know this I don't know, every educated person should know this, because it should common knowledge what ideologies want.
/rant
@UHM
In the public perception, Rosa and Karl seem forgotten by everyone except by Die Linke. Which is a bit tragic on many levels.
@UHM
She's a Canadian born university professor who specialized in German history, especially East Germany - which tried both ideologies. So she ought to know a thing or two about communism and fascism.
She's right: persecution is persecution. It doesn't matter what language you use to justify your totalitarian human rights abuses the end result is the same. Granted, there was more private property in Nazi Germany than under communism, but the Nazis were not fans of the free market and would tolerate large private businesses as long as they served the interests of the state (e.g. Krupp and I.G. Farben which were ideally suited to war production). The socialism in National Socialism was an important part of their ideology, ever hear of a company called Vokswagen? They just used different propaganda to justify it. Rather than the typical communist approach of some type of eternal struggle between labor and capital they took the approach of Jews vs. Aryans. Of course, anti-semitism was equally a communist ideology as well in the Soviet Union. Need I remind you of the progroms that the Soviets allowed to happen Poland against the surviving Jews there in 1946 or the plight of the Refuseniks in their struggle to get to Israel or the west?
Want even more evidence of extreme nationalism in the Soviet Union? What about what happened to Ukrainians in the 1930s who were forced to meet farm quotas to feed Moscow and Leningrad while Kiev and Odessa starved. Or how about the Baltic states who were outright conquered by the Soviets who wanted to impose the Russian language on them (much like how Franco wanted to impose Castilian Spanish on the Catalans and Aragonese speakers). There is also Finland who bravely fought off the Soviets to retain their independence? Why'd they do that - well the Soviets were claiming that since Finland was part of the Czar's empire that it should be part of the Soviet empire. And let's not forget the worshipful veneration of the Red Army in virtually all aspects of Soviet life during and after World War II akin to how most fascist states treat their militaries. OF course, you can turn to modern examples such as North Korea or Cuba to see the same strains of nationalism in the rhetoric of their leaders disguised as "progressivism."
I can go into even more similarities, say, for example, domestic espionage (exactly how were Stassi or the NKVD different than the SS?), women's rights (get in that kitchen and make babies and take care of the home!), gay rights (none), freedom of expression (none), the right of free travel (none), the ability to practice one's faith (or lack thereof) without state interference (none), in communist or fascist countries. The fact is that persecution is persecution. It doesn't matter what type of propaganda you use to justify it.
The fact is that extreme political ideologies may sound like they're different but in the end brutality and criminality that marked those regimes is the same. The history of political thought is filled with people adapting their ideologies to the real world and in the end producing results which seem drastically different then their own ideologies then forcing themselves to justify it (e.g. look at the debate over the Affordable Care Act. A liberal American president supports Bob Dole's idea for reforming America's healthcare system!). In the end what matters isn't ideology but actions. When judged against each other Fascism and Communism produced the same results. Sure, there are plenty of people out there who tell you that not all communists are equal that the Soviets, Mao, Castro, or the Kims "got it all wrong," you cited some examples yourself. While I haven't really researched it I suspect that there are as many neo-fascists who say that Hitler, Franco, and Mussolini didn't do fascism correctly either. But that doesn't matter. In the end both communism and fascism rely on drumming up conflicts between groups of people then using these conflicts to justify persecution.
In the end the two ideologies boil down to this: Who's causing your problems? Jews? non-Aryans? Bankers? land owners? the kulaks? etc.? Well then do as your told and it'll all be better - or else.
/rant
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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