[In the comments for a poll on whether the "faith healer" exemption for criminal charges resulting from a child's death in Idaho should be lifted.]
Two families, the Romeikes and the Wunderliches, fled Germany for the United States because the government was to take away their children because they were homeschooling. That is illegal in Germany. The government knows better than parents what is best for children.
44 comments
"Parents love their children and take the best care of them they know."
And if they don't know anything...? Unfortunately too many parents are less than competent when it comes to parenting and teaching. Freedom to teach your children whatever hair-brained beliefs you want and failure to get a child medical care are two different things... Just because it's your kid doesn't mean you can do whatever the fuck you want with them and face no consequences.
Oh, and look, this genius has to wedge in the "gay agenda." Bravo, fear-and-ignorance-monger, bravo...
The way I understand it, the German courts say that the children’s right for a good education has more weight than the right of the parents to teach them whatever they want.
But I guess it would make this guy’s head asplode if someone would tell him that there are religious classes in German schools, at least Protestant and Catholic, with even a few Muslim ones. So the American school system seems to be more “ungodly” than the German one!
@anothga:
There were some headlines in the German press a few months ago about a Christian sect who wanted to homeschool their children and had a court ruling against it. After that they tried to get a license for starting a private school, which was also denied. So, yeah
Seems I had that one only partially right. The Christian group “Die Zwölf Stämme” (translates to “The Twelve Tribes”) was denied the right to homeschool in 2006 and had then given the license for a private school. This license has now been revoked because they couldn’t get qualified teachers. Also there have been severe allegations of beatings and other abuse of the students.
Link to a report in German.
H'm well, if as it is said Germany has a total ban on homeschooling, then that is bad law. Obviously there must be safeguards re curricula, standards, and competence, but homeschooling per se is not in and of itself a bad thing. Are such Germans who can afford it allowed to have their children educated by private tutors? And if so, what's the difference?
No, the goverment may not know better than parents what is best for children. But children have rights of their own, and parents can't infringe on those rights. An evidence-based education is one of those rights that children ought to have.
Not all parents love their children, and some parents want to deprive their children of knowledge. You don't own your children, but children sort of own their parents; the parents chose to bring the child into this world, and they are responsible for the child's wellbeing.
Now seems like an appropriate time for this:
Parents love their children and take the best care of them they know.
Precisely: "the best care of them they know." That is why sometimes the government does know better than the parents. The children of ignorant parents, incompetent parents and uncaring parents need a better start in life.
Jewnior Spokesman: Germany outlaws all homeschooling but occasionally makes exemptions, for example, for children with disabilities.
Germany's school system is very good, however, so the usual arguments about how public schools aren't sufficient doesn't hold water. In Europe homeschooling is generally illegal or only permissible with strict limitations (like your parent must have a teaching degree, you have to undergo regular testing, you have to use books and curricula from the local school, etc). Homeschooling is really only used for kids with disabilities or illness, or more often, for fundies-- even where it's legal, people simply don't homeschool because they believe it will provide a better education because honestly, it usually won't.
And German parents do not use private tutors. Part of an education is learning how to work with peers-- indeed, it's essential to function in society, and it's something that many homeschooled children do not have and if they do have it, it's in a limited form (they can only work with peers who have the same religion or class status as they do). In the US, this isn't much of an issue, since schools tend to segregate based on class status and religion anyway, but it would be a definite handicap in Europe.
A parent's rights only lasts as long as the health and welfare of the child is being properly maintained.
Also you only care about a parent's rights if they are a Christian male and female. Otherwise you would be the first people asking the government to take their kids away.
@ Basiorana: thank-you for the info. The situation in the UK is somewhat different. Speaking as a parent and grandparent, our schools are, certainly in my experience, mostly not very good. If I could have afforded to homeschool my kids, I would have done. (Mind you, if I could have afforded to send them to Harrow or Roedean, I'd probably have done that).
I applaud Germany (and other countries that have outlawed it) for refusing to allow homeschooling. The fundamentalist nutjobs aren't doing it to better their kids' education but to brainwash and misinform them. In the US, they're allowed special textbooks that cast doubt on science, teach revisionist or flat out false history, and right-wing economic ideology.
And the entitled, brainwashed chickens have already come home to roost: A friend of mine recently spoke to a twenty-something product of homeschooling on the first day of her college anthropology class who was outraged that she would be forced to do coursework involving evolution.
"The government knows better than parents what is best for children."
The government may not always know better than parents, but it certainly knows better than the numpties who would entrust the health (and often survival) of their kids to a charlatan and/or a delusional loony...
"Parents love their children"
Not always true, otherwise beaten or otherwise abused children wouldn't exist. And let's not even get into the matter of parents who love their children the wrong way...
"and take the best care of them they know."
As several people already pointed out, that doesn't mean that these parents are competent.
"I heard from one person who said our attorney general told him parents have no rights."
Well, they have the right to produce spawns (if they are physically able), after that it's all duties, yes. And quite often I find myself wishing that people had to pass an exam and get a licence before they could reproduce...
Let's not let that happen to parental rights.
Even in Ancient Rome the pater familias was limited in his powers.
Letting a child die because of religious convictions was not, is not, will not and should never be a fundamental right.
Jehovah's Witnesses are routinely bypassed in matters of blood transfusions for minor dependants, in the United States and elsewhere.
EDIT:@Anon-e-moose
Homeschooling was already banned by the Nazis themselves.
I've no problem with homeschooling when it's controlled by competent authorities.
Fun fact: home schooling is legal in Finland. Mostly practiced by intellectuals who believe they can do a better job than the public school system, which is bloody tough. And do you know why the religious people aren't complaining? Religion (or philosophy, if you're into that) is a mandatory subject. Of course hardcore fundies still don't like that because religious teaching is not indoctrination. Hell, the courses sometimes veer into the realm of longstanding theological quandaries like the Problem of Evil - you don't want your kids to think there are things your religion can't answer, do you, fundies?
@JeanP
Which is why I was pointing out why 'Hoemskuling' is illegal in post -Hitler Germany.
'Is ' - the present tense - as opposed to 'Was ', the past tense. And thank fuck for that, o 21st Century Germany, I'm sure you'll agree. Compared to say, how the likes of Becky Fischer were allowed to operate in the US; prior to the very revealing - and fundie educational agenda-annihilating - documentary film "Jesus Camp", of course.
"Parents have no ability to opt their children out of teaching they believe is wrong."
You people sure do seem to be terrified that you children might learn from the outside world. I wonder why that is? If these outsiders aren't telling the truth then shouldn't your brilliant children be able to see right through it?
Parental rights, huh? Shall we talk about Parental RESPONSIBILITIES??
You know, the responsibility that you take on when you spawn... the whole "keeping the child healthy and alive" thing, that wonderful RIGHT TO FUCKING LIFE shit that pillocks like this shit keep on banging on about re: abortion.
So, lets have those parental rights... but no fucking excemptions to the responsibilities, ok?
But that would fuck over your plans to screw the kids and their future by stopping them learning anything factual... wouldn't it. No wonder you want that fucking exemption.
The point is, if you let the camel's nose into the tent, eventually the entire camel will be in.
Ah... so you understand why they can be no exemptions allowed... why the fuck are people like you fighting to keep the bloody things then?!?!?
"The government knows better than parents what is best for children."
"Parents have no ability to opt their children out of teaching they believe is wrong."
"Parents love their children and take the best care of them they know. If we say the government knows better, we are opening the door to further encroachments on parental rights."
Or, to put it in another way, being too dumb to figure out how to use a condom makes you more qualified to judge what children should be taught than people that have actual qualifications to judge just that?
@ Old Viking:
Apologies in advance if you were just being facetious.
Old Arab saying: "In a sandstorm, do not let a camel put his nose in your tent, or the rest of the camel will surely follow."
It's a colorful way to say, "No good deed goes unpunished." People who don't understand that use it as a slippery slope analogy.
Edit: OK, now I'm being facetious. There are several interpretations. Some of the kinder people will maintain that the most common is, "If you want to show charity, be prepared to go all the way."
Parents don't have rights; parents have responsibilities. And some parents are stupid, some are incompetent, and some are just evil.
Good luck getting a parents' rights amendment through if CPS gets to testify.
As a resident of California I call bullshit on the "parents of children in public (government) schools have no control over what is taught their children" bit, parents can (and have) opted out of having their children receive sex ed, and before any science teacher covers evolution they have to explain that they're not trying to offend anyone's beliefs.
The US should hand these people over. They are wanted.
That homeschooling is indeed illegal here may strike some as a leftover from more authocratic days - and it is (from the prussian 17XX kingdom to be exact), but it is not the terrible encroachment in freedoms that some make it seem like. Kids need to be around other kids. Kids need to learn certain things wether or not their parents like them. The state enforces that with the goal of giving each child the same education and this the same chance (actual results may vary) and make them into freethinking and useful people. Though that varies with every state. I know that my state of Berlin wants to raise free thought and independence but that Bavaria wants to include "the right Faith and the love for the bavarian motherland".
So yeah.
Edit:
Parental rights end where children's rights begin. Your only right as a parent is to raise a child in a responsible manner that produces a healthy, well-adjusted, productive citizen. When you fail to do that, then yes the government does have a right to step in. Your child is not your property, you don't "own" him, you are merely entrusted with his upbringing until he becomes an adult. People like you are why Brave New World is one of my favorite books. I constantly dream of a world free of fucked-up parenting.
@ Anonymous #1636631:
A friend of mine recently spoke to a twenty-something product of homeschooling on the first day of her college anthropology class who was outraged that she would be forced to do coursework involving evolution.
I bet her mother probably tried to send a note excusing her from learning anything about evolution on religious grounds.
Some parents are crazy. Some parents are deluded. Some parents are neglectful. Some parents are abusive. Some parents beat their children. Some parents rape their children. Some parents take their children to faith healers instead of hospitals.
If that happens, yes, someone should step in and remove the children from them. All this talk of parental rights, what about the rights of the children?
@Passerby
Idaho has laws that specifically excuse people from fatal child negligence?
Try to picture the expression on my face right now. It's a doozy.
Unfortunately, I don't have that look on my face. I have long been unamazed by the lengths people will go to protect their religion. They'll even go against their own fucking children. I have also long been unamazed at how stupid our laws can be. Oh I still have a healthy helping of outrage, but if I let it show in my face then my face then my face muscles would wear out.
Homeschooling isn't a bad thing, in-and-of itself; my wife and I homeschooled our elder two for a couple years, because they were (long story) enrolled in a CATHOLIC SCHOOL that was doing less than nothing about the way our boys were being bullied. We bought materials at a teachers' supply store, stuck to the mandated curriculum, got them regularly tested to provincial standards, and between us gave them a pretty decent education.
NOTE: we at no point evaded whole subjects of study because they interfered with our spiritual beliefs.
Parental rights movement? No, not another MRM analogue! I hope they don't push for stupid shit like forcing corporal punishment to be legal everywhere! We already have abuse apologists in the men's rights movement, and we don't need more!
Ah, right.
Something that is ineffective and can easily lead to deaths shouldn't be done because... well... parents know best?
Sorry, some parents are utter dipshits. Thus far, medicine has proven effective, faith healing has proven to have nothing more than a placebo effect.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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