Someone Said: "I was a Christian for 25 years."
Ray Answers: During your time as a Christian, did you know the Lord? If you say that you did know Him, you are admitting that God is real. If you say that you thought you did, then you didn’t, and you were never a Christian. You faked it all that time. But you are not alone. Many, if not most atheists have had false conversions and that’s why they are so adamantly anti-Christian. They heard a false gospel that said that Jesus gives joy and peace and fixes problems, and when what they think is Christianity didn’t deliver the promised goods, they became disillusioned and often bitter.www.EvolutionVsGod.com
56 comments
Or, very simply, they were sincere Christians and found the religion to be bogus.
Many atheists are actually lapsed fundamentalists who shared similar ideas to yours.
Again with the "People like atheists, Jews and Muslims can and do, all the time, become ex-atheists, ex-Jews and ex-Muslims! But no TRUE Christian could ever become an ex-Christian!!", Ray?
No True Scotsman, again. Jebus Raygun, are you getting tired or just lazy? Because if Hitch were still alive, he would kicked your heart to jelly for BS like that. With a small scotch in his hand.
Really, maybe a fake Ebola charity or a cancer "cure" is more your speed these days.
The whole "You weren't a real Christian" line of rhetoric is pretty flawed not only because it's a "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but because it doesn't even actually provide the assurance that the person asserting it desires. People like Ray like to drop "you weren't a real Christian" to assure other Christians that there's never a reason for a real Christian (like you) to leave the faith, but it fails at that purpose: Even if we accept Ray's premise that the Ex-Christian in question was never a "real Christian," he probably thought he was. He probably went to Church and prayed and thought he heard God speaking or felt God's hand in his life.
In other words, Ray is saying that it's possible to think you're a "real Christian" for all the right reasons, but still not be one. If that's so, then the listener has no way of knowing he's really a Christian either.
Damn it, Ray, stop using No True Scotsman.
If you say that you did know Him, you are admitting that God is real.
The reason so many atheists are anti-Christian is because we realize we were lied to so many years, in my own case brainwashed since birth, and then had our eyes opened. But don't tell me I wasn't a true Christian, because at one point I was just as devout as you are.
@Goomy pls
That's me in a nutshell.
Ray also needs to establish what true gospel he discovered and how long ago he found it and in fact where he found it and who it's leaders are. One should call out all the false teachings, shouldn't they Ray? They really should, unless they're running a con-game and need as many of the pre-trained gullible they can round up.
Another bullshit plug for another of Ray's bullshit videos.
So Ray, if ONLY YOU are a "true christian", then a "true christian" is a liar that denigrates and misrepresents science, falsely represents other peoples' statements and beliefs, takes money from those less fortunate, and uses the misfortune of others to sell their crappy books and videos in order to line their own pockets. Is that about right?
If you say that you thought you did, then you didn’t, and you were never a Christian
Fine, then nobody's a Christian until they can prove they know Jesus which is going to be difficult considering that nobody's even proven that Jesus exists. Since nobody is (currently) a verified Christian, that mean you can't claim any nation as a Christian nation and you can't even say you're Christian. To an outside observer, your claim to be Christian is no better than those "fake" Christians' claims when THEY thought they were Christians.
Ray, why don't you and all of the others that claim to be "true christians" go to a deserted island somewhere and work out exactly who is really a true christian. Until all of you that claim to be "christians" agree on exactly what it means to be a "true christian", shut the fuck up.
Ray, if you truly know an omnipotent, omniscient being whose number one priority is to be worshipped, then tell him to show up at your next debate in person, or at least send an angelic proxy.
As for your question, I "knew the Lord" in the same way that any Catholic "knows the Lord", in the same way that any Sufi "knows God", in the same way that any Jew "knows G-d", in the same way that any neopagan "knows the Divine", and finally, in the same way that you "know the Lord". The fact is, "knowing the Lord" is indistinguishable from the sort of psychological self manipulation that you would freely acknowledge exists in any other circumstance.
Besides, doesn't the Bible say that a person can have sincere faith and then lose it?
Ray, you ignorant slut. I thought God spoke to me when I was four years old. (I had been in Sunday School since age two.) It took me a long time to figure out that it was my imagination, coupled with my inner dialogue, as fed by the bullshit that was taught to me because good people believed stupid things.
It was when I started examining the contradictions (that you delusionally or dishonestly claim aren't there) that I realized the whole construct was as logical as planting watermelons on top of Mount Everest.
But don't even try to tell me I wasn't a True Christian. I was part of the choir that the Reverend was preaching to until my 18th year on Earth. By then, I had finally worked out what po$$ible rea$on a Pa$tor would have to lie about such things.
I suggest you watch Julia Sweeny's "Letting Go of God" repeatedly, until you form a better understanding of some of your fellow human beings. http://www.amazon.com/Letting-Go-God-Julia-Sweeney/dp/B001J21JRQ
One shameless plug deserves another.
Ray here is so obsessed with atheism that even if someone outright agrees with him and says he's Christian, he just continues rambling about atheism and offends the Christian guy by applying "no true Scotsman", thus alienating even those who are on his side.
So it's possible for somebody to profess to being Christian, but be mistaken about it?
Interesting.
How do you know that you aren't one of those people, Ray?
And HOW, exactly, does Comfort get to determine who truly "knows the Lord" and who doesn't? I've heard Christians brag about some mysterious, almost psychic ability (they wouldn't dare call it that though,) they call "dissernment"
More presumptuous garbage from the Banana Slug.
I'm sure Ray is quite familiar with faking it, since his wife fakes every single time.
There is no faking involved. People delude themselves all the time, and really, seriously, truly believe in their delusions at the time. Some learn differently over time and become atheists. Some of them never grow out of their delusions, and remain mired in religion.
@ emau99; Seconded. I'd go ask him that myself but he's banned me.
If God turns out not to exist, then according to Ray there were never any Christians at all.
So, only "true Christians" are "true Christians?" Isn't there a tautology in there someplace?
How about people who "know the Lord" are simply delusional?
Why won't God heal amputees Ray?
If Christianity doesn't give joy and peace and fix problems, then what's the difference between Christianity and not-Christianity? Or rather, what difference is there between a God who ignores us and does whatever He likes, and no God at all? Afterlife? And what makes you believe God would suddenly treat you differently in the afterlife than He does in this one?
Ex-Christians believed strongly in the Abrahamic deity when they had faith, hence why the loss of faith can be tough; it can be extremely hard to let go of something that has been a big part of your life and has given you comfort and what you thought was a purpose. Who are you to doubt them?
The only way you could know who is a true Christian is if you had access to the activities and beliefs held by every Christian in existence in order to determine whether they were following the correct way of life according to scripture. You'd also have to have a deep understanding of what God wants to judge who's truly living a Christian lifestyle.
RAY COMFORTimage
Get this years edition of Ray Comfort, with all the question dodging, self-shilling, and narcissism that you've come to love.
they say chrisitans who search for the truth end up finding it, and leave their religon.
certainly true in my experiance.
@ Citizen Justin;
Ray banned you? I hate to say it, but that sounds about right. He & his ilk are more about talking than listening.
@ cassandra;
The thing about "discernment" is that it cuts both ways. If they can't clearly explain how they determine who is a "true" Christian and who isn't, then they can't establish that they themselves are "true" Christians. After that, the rest of what they have to say can be summarily ignored.
They heard a false gospel that said that Jesus gives joy and peace and fixes problems
In reality, Jesus gives fear, hatred and greed, and causes people to despise you for being a bigoted hypocrite.
That's a winning message!
@Kanna
Don't kid yourself, I know of atheists who are mired in delusions of their own. Said delusions just don't happen to involve sky daddies.
Anyways, this is one of the most insidious uses of No True Scotsman fallacies in the Christian fundie world. This is an example of "once saved always saved" doctrine, which evangelicals use to "one-up" catholics by saying that it's faith, not works, that saves you.
So therefore, if someone leaves the religion, the only plausible explanation for them is that this person was never really saved - that they never truly were a Christian, and were simply faking it.
They do this because they are *terrified* of losing their own faith. Ray Comfort's ilk actually have the weakest faith out of everyone, which is why they have to scream the loudest over their own doubts.
Of course, the most insidious part of this is that it allows them to dismiss any ex-Christian from exposing problems with the religion, as well. So it's both a useful tool and a symptom of their own fear.
@nazani
I would venture to say that 98% of all Christians who claims a "personal relationship" don't see apparitions or hear voices.
And the 2% that do are considered insane by the other 98%.
If anything, it's more like talking conversationally with Big G and then trying to figure out how he's communicating back.
Ask 10 Christians how he does communicate back and you'll get 13 different answers about this... and then a fight as they all consider each other heretics.
@Szena
Yep. They are. It not only destroys their credibility, but it scares them that THEY might leave. That they might not really have ever been saved.
In many ways, Evangelical Protestant dogma is even worse than Catholic dogma.
"If you say that you did know Him, you are admitting that God is real."
So all it takes for the Loch Ness Monster to exist is someone saying "they know him"? That makes him real?
Ok, I know there's a million dollars in my checking account...
...damn, didn't work.
@ freako104
Yes, Passing the Plate, the most important part. They never forget that.
They heard a false gospel that said that Jesus gives joy and peace and fixes problems,
Funny cos that's the hook that evangelists use to convert people to Christianity. If they had been saying that while Christian, Ray would've gone 'ah the power of God!'.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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