Heywood #fundie #homophobia

Heywood #fundie #homophobia atheistforums.org

[But - and this is the point of this rambling pseudological screed - I think Heywood's incorrect about WHY we demand people not engage in certain behaviors: It's not because those behaviors are immoral, but because they cause harm.]

I said I can find no non-religious reason why homosexual sex should be immoral between consenting adults.....So I agree with you. However if God finds homosexual sex to be immoral and punishes homosexuals who engage in homosexual sex by sending them to hell, then homosexual sex does cause harm.

Now that being said, does that mean I find homosexual relationships to be equivalent to heterosexual relationships? I do not. It makes no sense to me whatsoever that they should be unless God deemed it so. If they are not equivalent then why should I view them as such?

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old comment by Kuno

I said I can find no non-religious reason why homosexual sex should be immoral between consenting adults....

Wow. Finally one of them acknowledges that! And now he just has to take that last step, realizing that the government should not regulate things on a religious basis.

However if God finds homosexual sex to be immoral and punishes homosexuals who engage in homosexual sex by sending them to hell, then homosexual sex does cause harm.

Aaaaaaand he takes two steps backward for the one he took forwards Sigh.

Now that being said, does that mean I find homosexual relationships to be equivalent to heterosexual relationships? I do not.

And you are welcome to that opinion. Now if you’d only realize that no one is obliged to follow your opinion, because it is just that, an opinion.

old comment by OHP

++"Now that being said, does that mean I find homosexual relationships to be equivalent to heterosexual relationships? I do not. It makes no sense to me whatsoever that they should be unless God deemed it so. If they are not equivalent then why should I view them as such?"

You've yet to give an actual reason why they're not equivalent. You've offered only a hypothetical situation in which they're not equal and even then the reasoning was fallacious in the extreme. If "it's bad because someone stronger than me said so and threatened to hurt me" is a valid justification then every Hitler and Stalin throughout history was perfectly just in their actions. Funny how you fundies throw those names at us and claim it's the only future our lack of belief offers even as you cheerily support a god whose actions and rules (if he existed) would make those men and their ilk look like the fucking Care Bears. Hence why I refer to your god as "the heavenly Hitler".

A better question would be what reason -- actual reason -- you have for deeming them inferior. Bear in mind that, outside of making decisions for yourself, opinions are not a valid reason for anything. You have every right to see a practice as wrong. You have no right to interfere in others' taking part in such practices based upon nothing more than your personal opinion or belief in the intangible and unprovable.

old comment by

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is inerrant, eternal and unchanging.

old comment by Senomaros

"I said I can find no non-religious reason why homosexual sex should be immoral between consenting adults.....So I agree with you."

Holy shit! A fundie that's capable of understanding and rationalizing from a sane, non-fundie mindset! You don't see those very often lately. I'm encouraged! Let's see where this goes.

"However if God finds homosexual sex to be immoral and punishes homosexuals who engage in homosexual sex by sending them to hell, then homosexual sex does cause harm."

If you accept the premises that a) a god does exist and b) his views on sexuality just so happen to align with what the bible says, then yea. But that's still not an argument for outlawing homosexual marriage. You still have to prove those two initial premises, and your side has failed miserably at this so far. What else ya got?

"It makes no sense to me whatsoever that they should be [equivalent] unless God deemed it so. If they are not equivalent then why should I view them as such?"

Ah, and here's the essence of fundie-ism. "Why should I do my own thinking and form my own opinions when this book of fairy tales right here can do that for me?"

old comment by SpukiKitty

Well, according to ME and many others....The Divine has no problemo with LGBT sex. As long as the parties are fully consenting and no adult/kiddo action is happening, it's fine.

True sexual impropriety/misconduct involves rape, coercion, deception & abuse.

Of course, I'm a NeoPagan.

Deity is also dual-gendered while non-gendered. It transcends gender.

In my ideal world, all organized religions wouldn't exist and be replaced by a nondescript, personalized, NeoPagan/New Agey (without the stupider bits) type spirituality, which would exist alongside Atheism, Agnosticism, Pantheism & Deism. No need for scriptures, just a simple mysticism based on common sense, freedom, love & empathy.

But since religions aren't dying out soon, one could at least be tolerant of the saner believers, fight frummerism and champion "Faith AND Reason" and apply the "Demiurge" concept to weed out bad, frummer teachings to good, open-minded teachings (calling the former 'Demiurgic' and thereby false & diabolic interpolations from corrupted authorities).

Heywood #fundie #homophobia atheistforums.org

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