(For reference, this is from a response to a fellow Calvinist who felt agonized by his wife's barrenness, the thriving of the ungodly, etc., and the to-him-fact that God had directly decreed all this. To the point that his prayer frequency had lessened. The tone of the letter suggested he was imploring Cheung for a way to divine good out of all this so the agony would stop. If you somehow want to read the whole thing, start from p. 100.)
The question that Paul says we should not ask [in Romans 9] is precisely the one that you are asking: "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" If you are a reprobate, then the matter is simple. This passage says that God has made someone like you so that someone like me can learn about his wrath, his power, and his patience – that he would tolerate someone like you for so long – and in contrast, about his riches and mercy toward me. So if you are a reprobate, this would be a satisfying conclusion to my response.
However, our working assumption is that you are a Christian. Even so, the passage is relevant. Notice that God reveals himself to the elect not only through the objects of wrath, whom he has prepared for destruction, but those who are saved are objects of his mercy – they themselves have been sinners, only that God has decided to sovereignly show them mercy. "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden" (Romans 9:18).
40 comments
If there really was a God, replying as such, to a fellow Christian, who is already under considerable emotional distress, would have probably made Vincent's thingies fall off.
Incidentally, what I'd REALLY like to see is a public "debate" between this guy and someone like Ray Comfort. Holy monkey balls, just imagine, ol' Ray having to be the voice of reason.
"God makes you suffer so righteous people like me can see how great he is."
I'm guessing that if the other guy isn't an atheist yet, he will be soon.
""Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden" (Romans 9:18)."
So, your point is that your God saves some people and damns others at a whim? You God is a sh*t.
Calvinists....ugh!
They have made their god in their own warped minds and there is no way of knowing god except through he their minds. They are aso into predestination. Those not predestined for heaven are damned to hell no matter how good a life they lead. Seems to me this is a passport to absolute libetinism. There is no point in being good. Logical clonclusion is to ignore such an unpleasant god and enjoy the present, since the future is going to be nasty anyway.
To note about Jean Calvin, he burned alive a man who was once his best friend. And you would call that man a friend?
Somebody better stop this subhuman psychopath!
I want to give the poor gentleman who wrote to this turd-sucker a big hug. I want to tell him that the God that he & Vinnie Chode-rot is false & Demiurgic & find another faith if he still believes in a higher power.
Not-So-Reverend Vile Chode is a PSYCHOPATH TO THE CORE! How could anyone follow him or read his books? I know the Jesus said "Love Thy Neighbor" & "Love & Pray For Your Enemies/Evil People" but DAMN...I can't help want to hear that Mr. Cheung was kidnapped & given the ol' "Black Dahlia Treatment". What an an evil little person.
Y'know what's frustrating? I'm trying to find articles debunking or refuting this guy. I haven't found one website that calls this jerk out!
Y'know, I have a big question for others. Have any of you guys tried to find a certain type of article & no matter what keywords or keyword combos you use, you can't find it? Why does that happen? Are the sites you're trying to find censored or blocked or do they just not exist?
I have Google. I know that Google can some times get censor-happy. They also have changed the filtering settings so it's all or nothing, no more "None-Moderate-Strict" settings. Can any of you suggest a search engine that's less censor-happy and with better search & filter abilities?
Sorry I'm asking this here. I don't know where to go. It's frustrating.
Yeah, well Paul was a dick, too. It's no surprise you like the god he imagined.
Fucking egomaniacs.
Oh yeah. "Sovereignly?" ... "Lemon Curry?"
@SpukiKitty
Y'know, I have a big question for others. Have any of you guys tried to find a certain type of article & no matter what keywords or keyword combos you use, you can't find it? Why does that happen? Are the sites you're trying to find censored or blocked or do they just not exist?
I have Google. I know that Google can some times get censor-happy...
When in doubt, blame the Googluminati and call it a conspiracy.
@SpukiKitty : You're probably better off just looking for sites that condemn and refute Hyper-Calvinism (or just Calvinism in general).
Alternately, just do a search for "Vincent Cheung" and "sociopath". You should find at least one or two sites with a poster admitting relief of getting out of the pall of him and similar Calvinist archons.
"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden" (Romans 9:18).
So why not conclude that humans have absolutely no say over what God does, and therefore can simply be ignored?
Yeah, yeah, God's a badass. We get it, we get it. Geez, find yourself a hobby.
In general Vincent Cheung is a supercilious douchebag, but this in particular bothers me:
As I mentioned, since your difficulty requires not only informing you of the right doctrines, but leading you to believe and apply them aright, my usual prescription would entail a program of extensive sessions of counseling for spiritual assessment and for radical realignment of the mind to conform to biblical teachings.
Does this sound like brain washing to anyone else? What that statement implies is really rather scary, and someone should be looking in on Cheung's ministry. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this guy on CNN because he was going all Heaven's Gate on people.
@#1520395
Thank you so much, man!
I'll check out those sites & I'll switch to Bing. Thanx!
@Skyknight
Thank you for the advice.
@breakerslion
Paul can certainly be problematic. I usually reject the stuff merely attributed (but not really written) by him. That's where most of the crap is written.
@Ironchew
LOL
@LiberalChristian
I feel for you, man. *HUG*
@KittyKaboom
WOAH! Holy Jonestown, Batman!
Made the switch to BING & Outlook. Love it! Kudos to the mystery poster who suggested it. Thanks!
Not wanting to throw sticks on a fire, but how does the other guy know that it's his WIFE's barrenness? Does he have kids with some other woman? Have they been to check themselves up and found that it's her body that refuses to accept his perfect sperm? If they haven't been to a check-up, then maybe that's where to start, instead of asking this dolt for advice.
It seems like that god of theirs made someone like Vincent Cheung, so that someone like us could learn that this is no way to treat a person in need.
God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden" (Romans 9:18).
He certainly hardens Vince. I really hope your bible is laminated Vince, or the few bits that you actually read and get off on.
Reading "Pastor" Cheung's quotes, I can't help but wonder if he's some sort of anti-Christian person intentionally trying to make Christianity seem as horrible as possible.
Because if he is, he's doing a fantastic job.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Qaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in guerrilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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