Vincent Cheung #fundie

Vincent Cheung #fundie vincentcheung.com

God is the only one who possesses intrinsic worth, and if he decides that the existence of evil will ultimately serve to glorify him, then the decree is by definition good and justified. One who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity. A creature's worth can only be derived from and given by his creator, and in light of the purpose for which the creator made him. Since God is the sole standard of measurement, if he thinks something is justified, then it is by definition justified

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old comment by From the frozen north, Death cometh

God is the only one who possesses intrinsic worth[...]

Umm... Ok, why is he the only one who has any value?

One who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity.

And one who thinks he has no value, but by the grace of a megalomaniac super being, doesn't have a high enough opinion of himself.

A creature's worth can only be derived from and given by his creator, and in light of the purpose for which the creator made him.

And since we aren't indulging in any special pleading here, your god has no creator and hence no value either. Also, is the value of a child derived from the parents and what they wanted the child to do? And if so, don't I then have value, given to me by my parents?

Since God is the sole standard of measurement, if he thinks something is justified, then it is by definition justified

Since there is no evidence suggesting that any gods exist, we have to have another standard and that standard is our own moral judgement and the general zeitgeist.

old comment by CohibaMan

A god who is worth the death and suffering of billions of people would never demand such a thing. If such a god did exist, the devil would be right to rebel against him and any moral individual would follow that devil to the depths of hell rather than be beholden to such a monster. And I say that as someone who does believe in God -- but I certainly don't believe in yours.

As an aside, Vincent fails theologically, as do most fundamentalist Christians. Traditionally, the idea that human beings are created in the image of God is much deeper than the silly idea that we somehow physically look like God. The Hebrew letters that make up the name of God (Yod-Heh-Vau-Heh), when stacked top-to-bottom, look like a human being - head, arms, torso, legs. The implication is that there is something within human beings that is a spark of the divine -- a reflection of God. Man is created in the image of God in exactly the same way that a child is created in the image of his parents. This has always been a theme in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic mysticism (as well as in Eastern religions, of course).

If God has infinite intrinsic worth, so do human beings. That fact has always been inconvenient to fundamentalists of all stripes because it conflicts with the drive for the raw power that requires others to be either sheep or sacrifices.

old comment by toast

Except that God would never say that evil is good. Despite the twisting around of the Bible's teachings by hate groups and political self-interest, God's ultimate desire for humans is that we love one another and live as rightly as possible (that is, not flinging insults or bombs at one another).

I know I'm in the minority on this site, and I realize that the first problem many who read this (if anyone does) will have is "you can't prove God exists." I accept that. I'm not asking you to believe God exists. But anyone who claims to be a Christian and spouts anything like what Mr. Cheung has said is either a liar or completely off the rails.

Assume for just a moment that a truly omnipotent (capable of anything short of paradox), omniscient that could logically be called a god exists, and that the Bible's description of that being is accurate:
- God is the creator of the universe and all of its component parts.
- God is the originator of life.
- God looked at everything He made in the natural world and declared it to be good.
- God, being the ultimate being, has inherent self-worth.
- After creating man, God endowed mankind with some of His spirit.

If you claim to believe in the Judeo-Christian God, it then follows that you believe every human being, past present and future, is a creature deserving of life.

You may, if you so choose, now cease assuming there is a God.

I'm no theologian, so issues like the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice, the death penalty etc. are beyond me. But I think it's a good start, no?

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"God is the only one who possesses intrinsic worth, and if he decides that the existence of evil will ultimately serve to glorify him, then the decree is by definition good and justified. One who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity. A creature's worth can only be derived from and given by his creator, and in light of the purpose for which the creator made him. Since God is the sole standard of measurement, if he thinks something is justified, then it is by definition justified"

Ahem:

image

If your so-called 'God' existed, even he can never justify his own existence (he doesn't have the common courtesy to actually show himself to us, just to prove his existence. How worthless is that?!). And as the above pic proved (from a late 19th Century magazine/newspaper) - and continues to prove to this day - we Atheists are infinitely superior to your so-called 'God'. Further proof?:

image

And I've never killed anyone in my life, nor do I want to, ever. Ergo, I am more than infinitely superior to your 'God', Vinny-boy. Your 'God' is inferior - even to the AIDS virus (after all, at least a mere virus doesn't discriminate re. who it infects & kills; 'Sinner' or 'Saved', it's all the same to it), and therefore is worth less than zero. QED.

old comment by Horsefeathers

"God is the only one who possesses intrinsic worth, and if he decides that the existence of evil will ultimately serve to glorify him, then the decree is by definition good and justified."

Sounds like you're just making excuses for your omnipotent god's distinct lack of action when it comes to the Problem of Evil.

"One who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity."

You're fucked up. So is your perverse monster god.

"A creature's worth can only be derived from and given by his creator, and in light of the purpose for which the creator made him."

You realize this goes for you too, right? You're basically telling me that I can do whatever I want to you since you aren't worth anything.

Either you're incredibly stupid and don't realize what you're saying, incredibly arrogant and don't think that what you're saying applies to you also (which is what most people saying such shit think) or you're in need of a good dominatrix to let you live out all of your fantasies of being worthless without someone superior to grovel to.

"Since God is the sole standard of measurement, if he thinks something is justified, then it is by definition justified"

This is absurd.

old comment by John

Fundie Beliefs #23 - Theodicy

"Theodicy" is the attempt to explain why a benevolent and all-powerful God lets bad things happen to people. For example, why does He allow an entire city to be destroyed by an earthquake? No problem. There’s simply no such thing as "bad". Either

a) He’s "testing" you to see if you’re strong enough to deal with adversity,
b) It’s part of "His plan", and we don’t know what that plan is, but it’s sure to be a good one, or
c) It was Satan’s fault, and it would’ve been a whole lot worse if God hadn’t stepped in and put a stop to it.

Imagine how many more people would have died on 9/11 if God hadn’t been there to stop Satan and those heathen Muslims from doing worse. And don’t forget, if it hadn’t been for Hitler, no one would have believed all those Jews whining about the phony "holocaust" and given them back Israel. Plus what would make you love God more: praying to win the Powerball jackpot and actually winning, or praying not to destroy your home with a tornado and having the tornado destroy your home anyway? Obviously, the latter!

old comment by Brendan Rizzo

This is just... wow, this is just abominable. I guess Vincent Cheung does not believe in human rights, no sirree, so if the rich and powerful want to oppress everyone else than it is their God-given "right" to do so as only God has intrinsic worth. Thus, as long as they say that they're glorifying God they have carte blanche when it comes to morals. Why does that seem so damn familiar...?

I rarely say this, but please die in a fire, Cheung. You deserve it. After all, your life has no intrinsic worth, according to your own professed belief. Oh, what's that you say? You don't want to kill yourself by walking into a fire? Well then, doesn't than mean that... life... has worth? Just because people are alive, they deserve to live? What a novel concept! (/sarcam)

Ponder that.

old comment by Passerby

In your logic, just who exactly is fit to decree that death and suffering bring glory to God?

If a creature's worth is defined solely by it's creator then I submit humanity is absolutely fit to say what His glory is worth. We've been shaping Him in our image since before Religion became an institution.

I've lost track of how many religious nuts have stated flatly that human life has no intrinsic worth. It's somewhere equal to the number of idiots that claim atheists place no value on life.

I'm happy for the people that fill a void in their lives with their beliefs, but people like you I pity. Believing yourself worthless and your God a sadistic egomaniac your life must be so hollow.

old comment by Veras_the_Brujah

If a man has the ability to stop an evil act, and instead does nothing; that man should be considered evil as if he had committed the act himself. If this is the standard to which we hold humanity, it is fair to hold god to at least this standard.

Evil exists in the world, therefore no deity can be both good and omnipotent. Any god that does exist either chooses not to stop evil from happening (and is therefore evil), lacks the ability to do so (and is therefore impotent), or both.

Cheung's argument only reinforces the idea that God is evil, as God either actively creates death and destruction, or passively chooses to allow it to happen solely for the purpose of stroking its own ego.

old comment by katie5000

Wow, and I thought we ditched feudalism centuries ago.

"The Titans are power! And might makes right!"

old comment by

And, a possible slave code circa 1619...

The Master is the only one who possesses intrinsic worth, and if he decides that torment and injustice towards his slaves will ultimately serve to glorify him, then the decree is by definition good and justified. One who thinks that the Master's authority is not worth the death and suffering of all his slaves has too high an opinion of himself and humanity. A creature's worth can only be derived from and given by the one who owns him, and in light of the purpose for which the Master obtained him. Since the Master is the sole standard of measurement, if he thinks certain treatment is justified, then it is by definition justified.

But then again, seeing as he believes in absolute power and not moral absolutes, Vincent probably okays slavery, seeing as his backwards belief system provides no real solid moral code and rule of law once we boil his points down to their gritty remains.

(Edit: User is JSS)

old comment by

I disagree. What now?

No really, I say god is worthless. How do you disprove that? On what grounds does god know better than me? What qualification? I know what you'll say. "He's all powerful, of course he knows better", nope. I see no evidence that power brings wisdom or clarity. All history is full of examples, power corrupts. You'll then repeat "he's the creator, that means he defines his creations", also bull. I make a calculator, then ask that calculator a complicated math question, I don't know better just because I made the calculator.

You can't bring one shred of reasoning to me that proves god is the be all and end all of reason. If he made us able to reason, then we are just as good at it as he.

old comment by Skyknight

For the record, the link above no longer works because it looks like Cheung consolidated his writings into a few large .pdfs. "The Problem of Evil" is now a chapter of "Author of Sin".

http://www.vincentcheung.com/books/authorsin.pdf

EDIT: @1423035 Unfortunately, it looks like Cheung anticipated you. According to him, our every thought is specifically planned and activated by God. The horrifically baleful ones included. And he actually says at one point that we have a moral duty not to sin, even if he expressly made that impossible for any given person! Shouldn't be much of a surprise that he deems moral responsibility to be presupposed by divine sovereignty, not free will, the existence of which he thinks would undermine God's omnipotence.

And yes, in the first parts of that aggregate, Cheung gives what he thinks is why God created reprobates with no intention of letting them even think of atoning. It's so the elect have a way to see his wrath in action, and thus be able to glorify that part of him along with everything else.

old comment by

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Qaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in guerrilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

I’m pretty sure that God created us in His image, making us pretty special. And the saying that He made us out of the earth itself may very well be a metaphor for God changing up every species He creates until it looks like Him. I’m pretty sure God would not go to all that effort to create us in His image and then declare us worthless, right?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and saying that humans shouldn’t suffer for God’s glory is actually kinda like saying that characters shouldn’t suffer just for the author of the story to be a highly acclaimed author, in a meta sense.

Vincent Cheung #fundie vincentcheung.com

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