www.reddit.com

BiggerTrees #wingnut reddit.com

Obviously not all prochoicers, but a significant amount, suffer from tokophobia; therefore they describe pregnancy as this awful body horror, that will end in ripped genitals or abdominal mutilation every time without the beautiful "way out" that is abortion. Therefore they will find a way to excuse anything, as long as it saves them from their worst nightmare... Well, anything besides not enjoying vaginal intercourse with partners who can impregnate, apparently.

Tell these people that they are free not to buy tickets for the lottery where the big prize is literally their worst effing nightmare. Forcing anyone to play is illegal already. So it's indeed a choice. You think pregnancy is a blessing..? Cool, we're all free to act accordingly. You think pregnancy is literal torture / punishment / your worst nightmare...? Cool, we're all free to act accordingly. Just maybe, your unfortunate phobia is a personal problem, and the solution shouldn't be "what if we ALL agreed that unborn human life is just utterly worthless.. unless someone happens to want it there.? 'Cos that'd be better for me, thanks." But then, I suppose that living in a reality that doesn't exist primarily to cater to their own self interests regarding what they personally like and do not like is "torture" too.

MTKintsugi #wingnut reddit.com

RE: Why fetus is considered woman's body if it is created by fusion of man's sperm and woman's egg and it only feeds off woman? I would understand if fetus was only womans egg, but its also man's cell. Born kids are also feed off woman yet nobody says they are woman's body.

The unborn are not the woman’s body. The woman simply claims ownership due to location. It’s basically slavery.

Ho- How is that slavery? Im putting the organs in my body to work with no pay. Is that slavery? No, It's not. Just like the mother calling the fetus her's, it's not slavery! It has no thought, no life to be killed. Its a possiblity, that's it. But if that "child" is saved lets say, they miss behave then what are you gonna do? Say " I brought you into this world and I can take you out." God dammit.

Deciding that another person is your property is slavery.

And thats not a person, its a possiblity.

There was a time where the US Supreme Court said that slaves were not fully human. They did this to deny them their humanity and to excuse their mistreatment so that they would continue to be treated less than human.

The Dred-Scott decision was wrong and was later reversed because it was wrong.

Denying the humanity of the unborn is no less egregious and just as wrong as denying other human beings their humanity.

Your argument is a losing one.

Oh real rich coming from the same side as the people who wish to deny the humanity of trans people and just queer people as a whole, seeing us as mentally ill and pedophiles, groomers and the like. So I could say the same about your argument.

The topic of trans rights is separate from this. This is the topic. Stick to the topic. Trans rights and mental Illness are another discussion.

However, I don’t see anyone actively denying the right to life of trans people.

various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

RE: Why can’t a rape victim get an abortion?

(Zeul7032)
1.because the child did nothing wrong and no amount of personal suffering justifies you killing someone who has done nothing to you

2. around 32k women get pregnant due to rape in the US every year, killing 32k non rapist isnt going to bring that number down

3. the US has about 600k abortions every year around 1% of those are due to rape, that is around 6 k, lets just to prove a point say say that that 1% is in fact 2% (but some don't want to admit it for some reason, and lets ignore the fact that that would mean the 32k number is much bigger)that puts the number at 12k... that is still less than half of the women who get pregnant from rape, in other words even most rape victims don't resort to killing their child just because something unfortunate happened to them

(Anselmian)
Why are you pro-life, and how are those reasons affected by whether the person seeking to kill the unborn human being is a rape victim?

If a rape victim wants to kill her baby who has been born (say, because she was extremely traumatised and this was the first opportunity she had to safely do so), would that be wrong? What, if anything, is different when the baby is unborn?

(lanierg71)
Here's my take:

1. An innocent life should not EVER have to be murdered for the sins of the father.

2. The exception would swallow the rule. Everyone would start claiming rape to get out of an unwanted pregnancy post-Dobbs. Meanwhile no one has the stones to require women to make formal police reports, submit to a rape kit test, or prosecute the rapist criminally to qualify for this exception. Hate to tell you, but women have been known to lie sometimes about occurrences of rape and sexual assault. See, e.g., Julie Swetnick, the Duke Lacrosse team, "Mattress Girl" at Columbia U., and that frat at UVA/Rolling Stone.

(MrDixie_)
Circumstances surrounding the conception of a life don't lessen the value of a life.

(Trumpologist)
The child shouldn’t die for a crime it did not commit

various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

(Atmospheric-Icing)

How should abortions be punished
Assuming we are not talking of a situation where an abortion is needed to save the mothers life, what do you all think about how planned and performed abortions should be punished?

(chuck_ryker)
They should go after the doctors and facilities that perform them. Charge doctors with murder, and any nurses, secretaries, or higher ups helping out as accomplices. Immediately shut down any facility that hosts it.

(Iselinne)
Prison is the appropriate punishment imo. For everyone involved.

(boredguy3467)
Death penalty

Various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

([deleted])
Legal Consequences of Abortion
I am very pro-life and I want abortion both illegal and unwanted. However, what exactly does that look like? For something to be illegal, there must be a punishment. Would it be good if the woman went to jail along with the "doctor?" I believe that it is fair because she chose to have her own child killed but then again, the "doctor" is the one who actually did it.

What do y'all think?

(Flashy_Lab_7765)
I think that at least at first, punishment for women would be too much of a 180 from the current popular position. I think first banning performing abortions with strict punishment, then once it's both illegal to perform abortions and the concept of abortion is seen as around the same level as murder in the public eye, then we can illegalise procurement.

(symbiote24)
We need to take things slowly. Black Americans didn't get the right to vote right after being freed from slavery. I believe anyone that can be prosecuted for after birth murders should be also be prosecuted for pre birth murders. These include, getaway drivers, the person who wants to kill someone, the hitman, etc.....

However, that is simply not feasible to start with. Unfortunately history has shown that it will take time for these things to pass.

(GoreHoundKillEmAll)
both women and doctor go to jail

(MojaveMissionary)
I'm also Pro Life and I disagree with you on this. The so called doctors should absolutely be brought to justice for making a career out of killing innocent human beings and encouraging women to get an abortion.

But alot of women don't actually understand what exactly goes on when an abortion takes place, whether it's a pill or a procedure. When we decide who's innocent and who's guilty we always look at whether or not a person has the mens rea. So shouldn't that apply here? If a "doctor" tells a woman it's just taking out a ball of tissue I think alot of them probably believe that's all it is.

Various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

I WILL LITERALLY DIE IF I DON'T HAVE UNPROTECTED VAGINAL SEX EVERY DAY OF THE MONTH!
image

(FakeElectionMaker)
Pro-choicers and incels claim to hate eachother, but both think sex is a right and will kill people in order to exercise it.

(whatisthisadulting)
People don’t think about it as “a right to sex.” Nobody ain’t got a right to have sex. Sexual freedom? No freedom without responsibility, folks, and the responsibility of sex is CHILDREN. Y’all skipped biology by thinking sex is meant for anything other than reproduction. I’d say we’re pretty lucky we enjoy it and happen to do it for fun and pleasure, the rest of the animal kingdom only has sex when fertile and if you watch the females, doesn’t look too fun!

(melodychu9)
How can you constantly take shit from people who continuously telling you "no uterus, no opinion" and then blindly agree with them? Like they keep telling you your opinion doesn't matter, they don't even give a shit about men when they are PC.

Can't wait to see how the "sex strike" goes! 😂

(spekulatis)
Lmao yes, they act as though women are animals in heat and have no control over when or how they have sex.

Femcels and pc women have unsafe sex, and then are shocked when they become pregnant or get Pozzed or another sexual disease.

JeromemeReplies #wingnut reddit.com

Pro-Aborts' Great Desire to Sever Conception From Sex
Pro-Aborts, alleged stalwarts of sex education, have a very difficult time linking pregnancy to sex. Against all reason, they feel like they must fight for this severance or else the mother undoubtedly holds some responsibility and liability of causing a state of dependency on the unborn which obliterates any claim to bodily autonomy "self-defense".

If they sever this connection between sex and pregnancy, then every abortion case becomes as contentious as a rape case where the mother had no decision in her actions to get pregnant.

Which argument highlights the obvious connection between sex and pregnancy that everyone accepts without second thought? It's the duty of the father to support the child they helped create instead of abandon it. This argument is so powerful that it's banned from the abortion debate subreddit.

Various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

Found this crazy person... (I reported her middle comment for hate. Will keep you updated)
image

(DiamondConfident1811)
Abortion saves lives! Except for the 60 million+ deaths since Roe, but who’s counting?

(Adela-Siobhan)
You want to keep ALL HUMANS ALIVE?!!! You’re worse than those soldiers who carried out genocide!

(gakezfus)
By that logic, Anti-Nazis are THE DEVIL. Worse than Nazis. Who's going to take care of all the sick and starving Jews and other prisoners who you're forcing to live?

(Revolutionary_Type95)
If your child was going to die in a few years, wouldn't you want as much time with the child as possible? Killing them earlier isn't going to make anything better.

(JesusLovesYouMyChild)
The nazis would probably be heavily pro choice because millions of black babies aren't born due to abortions, the nazis would love that

(WhyIsIsTakenTaken)
The founder of planned parenthood wasnt a Nazi, but she was a racist eugenicist who believed exactly that

(smart_simulator)

Pro lifers are THE DEVIL. Worse than Nazis.

Look, I'm no fan of treating the National Socialists as the definition of pure evil incarnate, but they are by no means morally better than the pro-life movement.

Also, Satan is pro-abortion.

(DiversityIsDivisive)
Actually, the Notorious German Socialists only exterminated about six million Jews and six million Poles for a total of 12 million. Compare that to 60 million American children murdered by their own mothers.... The Stylish Goose Steppers are possibly our moral superiors

(smart_simulator)

Compare that to 60 million American children murdered by their own mothers....

I agree. I said that the National Socialists are not morally better than the pro-life movement: us, who seeks to end the barbaric practice of abortion. They are definitely less bad than the pro-abortion movement.

various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

Why is the pro choice stand always something with emotions, drama and cries and pro lifers more often go with morality and biology?

(BiblicalChristianity)
Because when you advocate for evil, you have to either admit it's evil or manipulate people into believing it's good.

So manipulation is one of the three branches of pro-choice arguments

(Ivy-And)
I think it depends upon the people. On Facebook I encounter more prolifers who are emotional or make poor arguments (what if that baby cures cancer?)

But overall I would say, you’ve got to work with what you’ve got, and pro choice can only spin out into unscientific arguments that devolve into bad philosophy and muh feelings.

Prolife can be all those things, but our best arguments incorporate sound logic, science, and hopefully some empathy.

(JesusLovesYouMyChild)
Also pro lifers appear more calm

(Jinchuriki71)
Well you see prochoicers gotta make unrealistic arguments about why eugenics and killing babies is alright its a lotta pressure. Also if there isno abortions than it may expose them cheating on their spouses.

(ASmartCorgi)
They value their own convenience and happiness in life over life itself.

(jaelyn91011)
I think it's partially because they don't see a need to actually defend their beliefs. I think a lot of pro-choicers consider their view on abortion to be "common sense", or that pro-choice is the position any well-adjusted person would take. Therefore they don't have to entertain arguments from the other side, because they must be in bad faith by default. A majority of the public and the media appear to be on their side, and it feels like an easy solution to a lot of difficult problems. Mothers in poverty no longer have to be mothers, teen pregnancies can just be whisked away, the list goes on. Not to mention there is a heavy anti-child sentiment among the public, so abortion is a shockingly easy thing to support for a lot of people.

[...]

various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

"No uterus no opinion" but I can still make fun of her if she doesn't think babies should be murdered
image

(BiblicalChristianity)
"I am the post-roe generation" is now literally true.

(Bejeweled_Bird)
The whole thread is people saying they want her raped, think about that? Everyone who is pro-choice: Your ideology is so twisted, so disgustingly warped and you are so evil that you are part of a group that would rape a woman for being pro-life.

Every single one of you pro-aborts are disgusting, all of you. You are just the same as every other pro-abort.

(CorvusKhan)
All they know is depravity. That’s why the only things they want for people who don’t think like them, or people they don’t like, are rape and death

(Footballfordayz)
If you’re a woman who is pro-life your opinion DOES NOT count and if you’re a pro-choice man your opinion DOES count.

It’s actually just about agreement.

Sometimes I like to have fun by responding with a photo of the all men Supreme Court at the time of the Roe ruling.

(Jofuffle)
Kinda like when a straight white male is trans his opinion suddenly outweighs any biological female

(Footballfordayz)
Exactly

(Jofuffle)
Same with black people but in the reverse I guess. When they have a slightly non leftist opinion their blackness gets taken away by you guessed it. White liberals 🤦🏻‍♂️

(Footballfordayz)
Every time I point out a more conservative black voice there’s always the same response; “token black voice for conservatives” and it’s always from a white person.

They’re truly unaware of how racist it is…

(Guyincognito9876)
You know she’s conservative because she’s attractive and well groomed.

(AppoloniaSkyle)
So she's being attacked now by the green haired, morbidly obese "feminists" who only have fantasies that someday a man might touch them willingly. They're pschyotic over any woman who isn't repulsive from the inside out, like them.

(PharosProject)
They're similarly two-faced when it comes to men. "No uterus, no voice" is shrieked at pro-life men, but pro-abortion men (even those who aren't trying to be women) are welcome to join their rallies.

mangoorangejuice18 , HippyDippyCommieGuy & FakeElectionMaker #wingnut reddit.com

RE: I had an anxiety attack due to an argument over abortion in a discord server.
(mangoorangejuice18)
I’m sorry you went through that, anxiety attacks can be so mentally, emotionally, and physically draining.

I don’t know the exact arguments they used but as far as the rape exception not being consistent with Prolife (which you’re correct) I’ll leave some breadcrumbs I might have throw out there;

How should we treat innocent members of the human family who happen to remind us of traumatic events?

If the right to life means anything it means the right to not be killed. If that right can be taken away from an innocent human based on the violent actions of a third party that occurred before that innocent human being even came into existence, then the right to life starting at conception stands on no solid ground.

(HippyDippyCommieGuy)
Why?

(FakeElectionMaker)
I couldn't refute the view that being against abortion while supporting an exception for underage rape victims was consistent. And someone else said it's better to be aborted than to suffer.

(HippyDippyCommieGuy)
You could make the argument that since the woman didn’t consent to the act of sex during rape, the pregnancy would be a violation of her right to bodily autonomy; where as consensual sex leading to pregnancy is not.

As far as the second comment, that says more about that person than it does anything else.

If they think they’re life is meaningless, and they would’ve been better off aborted, then that’s sad, but it only applies to them.

It isn’t a fact, it’s an asinine opinion; and honestly, I don’t think there’s any reason to take it seriously

(FakeElectionMaker)
That person had asked if we wanted to punish women for their choices. Pro-choicers believe this argument implies women should be punished for having sex, as to them, we see children as a consequence

(mangoorangejuice18)
They purposely mistake responsibility with punishment.

The real punishment is dismembering the child for the crimes of the father and calling it justice.

various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

This woman is deranged.
image

(empurrfekt)
“Fool people” from the side that opposed mandatory sonograms because roughly 80% of women change their minds when they see what their “clump of cells” actually looks like.

(mangoorangejuice18)
Totally unlike the completely neutral and non-manipulative tactics of planned parenthood where they dress up a liberal arts major in a white lab coat, clipboard, and call their abortion salesman a ‘counselor.’

PP will tell her they hold the solution to her burdensome problem.

The pregnancy center will show and remind her that she doesn’t have a problem, she has a new family member and they will join her in support and celebration of that, because no one should have to go through pregnancy alone.

(Dangerous-Paper9571)
The crazed, demented eyes of one who loves the murder of children.

(BiblicalChristianity)
Totalitarian reflexes cause the urge to shut down everything we disagree with.

(rothbard_anarchist)
I was concerned that RvW being overturned would result in a blue wave of enormous proportions. But the wild inhumanity on full display, attacking crisis pregnancy centers, may end up having the opposite effect at the polls. I think it's a fairly small subset of self-described pro-choice people who think women hoping for a path to keep a child should be denied that choice via shutting down the places there to help them.

(vintologi24)
That's because she wan children to be killed in the womb (anti-natalism) she is not actually in favor of bodily autonomy. She want to push women to have abortions, more is better in her mind.

(hail-holy-queen)
it's curious how they NEVER speak about what an actual abortion is. so many speaking points all so disconnected from the actual act that is killing an unborn child, because there are no speaking points to counter that.

Earliest delivery so far is 21 weeks, that kid is out there living his life. In my country abortion is legal for any reason upto 24 weeks, beyond that, just say you're depressed about being pregnant, doctor shop until one says okay, terminate.

Crisis pregnancy centers are a distraction, it all is from the above.

bcjh , BiryaniEater10 & LivingKick #wingnut reddit.com

(bcjh)
There’s no such thing as women’s rights in this subject, it’s about children’s rights.

If you tell any pro-choicer “well what about the child’s rights?” after they tell you that “it’s a woman’s choice” their next attack will always start the core of the argument that it’s “not a child…”

“It doesn’t have consciousness”

“It doesn’t have memories or sentience”

“It’s not breathing”

All of these arguments can be dismantled by any snappy Ben-Shapiro-esque argument about how sentience doesn’t matter and science. So I just felt like ranting and people hate it when I call it children’s rights or say “but doesn’t the child have constitutional rights!?”

(BiryaniEater10)
Wait why doesn’t sentience matter though? I’d agree that you can’t use the fetus not being alive as a stand-alone since it has potential consciousness anyways but sentience can’t be irrelevant.

(LivingKick)
Because drawing the line at sentience could be construed as ableism and discrimination based on developmental stage (age) which, for reasons related to Godwin's law and eugenics as a whole, should be avoided as possible grounds for what might be dehumanisation. Furthermore, if sentience is the defining characteristic, then that means that those who are comatose, brain dead or unconscious would, for that time, lack personhood which should be avoided on the basis that stripping personhood is never a good thing as it is now open to do unimaginable and harmful things to them as they have no personhood protection.

It just makes more sense to have the line be at the most inclusive and reasonable point possible out of an abundance of caution to avoid possible dehumanisation, which is why many PLers would view sentience as irrelevant as being a whole human organism, alive and having that capacity or potential for consciousness/sentience alone is enough.

otiac1 #wingnut reddit.com

Abortion isn't a religious issue, and your example is a poorly constructed false equivalence.

The failure with the violinist argument, and others like it (such as your "blood donation" example), is that it not only fails to account for the false equivalence it presents (e.g., a right to life is not the same as a right not to die, the relationship between parents and child differs from the relationship between stranger and stranger, the womb does not represent extraordinary means but is designed to support gestation), the consequentialist thinking necessary to employ it where if 'the ends are the same all means are equivalent' is refused in virtually all other cases except abortion to justify abortion, which truly is a case of an individual building an argument from which logically follows X, Y, and Z, but refusing Y and Z for no other reason than they don't like them. If a person needed a blood transfusion, their cause of death would not be "failure to receive blood transfusion," but "injury." If a person is aborted, their cause of death would not be "failure to adapt to their environment," but "<dismemberment, chemical scalding, or any of the other absolutely barbaric means by which children are killed>."

This is beside whether comparing sex to cars colliding is appropriate (it is not; use of the sexual faculties between man and woman has, as a primary purpose, pregnancy. This isn't a case of an otherwise difficult to forecast or easily avoidable "accident" of the type "car collision" might represent).

If you think it is acceptable, im going to start treating your lot alot more differently. If you force me to live be your religious doctrine, you are my enemy.

This is hilarious, because whenever you decide to vote, you attempt to force others to live by whatever doctrine you embrace. It's you against the world, pal!

jaelyn91011 , Branith & Revolutionary_Type95 #wingnut reddit.com

(submitters note: responding to this image)

(jaelyn91011)
Just because someone's life is traumatic doesn't mean it would be better had they never been born... What kind of suicidal logic is that? I hate how they frame people who overcome trauma as "a few unicorns", nearly every person who's close to me has experienced horrific amounts of child abuse and survived.

And you know what? Every single one of them is glad to be alive. They survived, they fought, and they prevailed for their happiness, because the value of their life is not defined by their abusers.

The reality of the human experience is that we have the capacity to experience terrible suffering just as much as wonderful pleasure. Trying to prevent suffering by eliminating life that may suffer also robs them of any joy they might get. If you want to pull heartstrings over potential suffering in life, what about potential joy? Happy memories, having your first crush. Making a best friend. Falling in love. Holding hands, learning to sing to the radio, blowing out candles on a birthday cake - when you end a life you don't just take away the suffering. You take away the happiness, too.

It's suicidal logic. It's suicidal logic to claim its better to have never been born than to suffer.

(Branith)
In leftists eyes its always better killing someone. Pretty much sums up how those people think.

(Revolutionary_Type95)
I know a family that aborted a child, and as a result their other born child grew up lonely and neglected. Abortions donot only impact the unborn.

Even if you're wanted, that doesn't spare you from the possibility of being abused (as I've suffered the same myself) life includes suffering of one form or the other. That doesn't mean that we should kill everyone so that they don't have to experience them. Suffering can develop character, endurance, and resillience and a drive to help others in the same situation. We should be helping each other through our suffering instead of resorting to killing each other.

BiblicalChristianity #wingnut reddit.com

The three branches of pro-choice arguments: undervalue, dehumanize, and manipulate
(continued from https://fstdt.com/K34_ZSN48BX8K)
In general, while there is a legitimate discussion in cases of rape, under no circumstance is the fetus not a human or less of a human. Therefore, a fetus has inalienable human rights, including the right to remain alive.
Manipulate
Where should I start? In my experience in debating/discussing abortion, the unfortunate reality was that far too many arguments settle for manipulation instead of logical reasoning.

Politics has always been full of lies, so it's not surprising to see so many bad arguments packaged nicely and influencing the public opinion. But most of it is not even difficult to refute.

Some of these arguments, I admit, take more work, patience and knowing the root of the narrative and the hidden agenda behind them. I have my own thoughts of why people argue a certain way and what the narratives they use can cause in the long term. But that's a separate topic.

It's difficult to list these arguments but here are a few:

*"Pro-lifers don't care about humans after they are born" - While this is obviously false, the proper response should be that it's irrelevant. The only group of humans who are currently legally killed while innocent are fetuses. Framing this as if pro-lifers care only about fetuses is one manipulation that pro-choicers use often.

*"Pro-lifers shouldn't support the death penalty" - The death penalty can be discussed, but the subtle fallacy here is false equivalence between killing someone while innocent vs. after conviction of crime. You will hear arguments about false convictions... as if pro-lifers are OK with killing humans who are falsely convicted. It takes patience to untangle all these fallacies and refute them.

*"Being pro-life should mean approving universal healthcare" - Again while healthcare, taxes and other financial policies can be a discussion, having an opinion on the economic policies does not imply what you think about actually killing a human while innocent.

BiblicalChristianity #wingnut reddit.com

The three branches of pro-choice arguments: undervalue, dehumanize, and manipulate
I will try to summarize the arguments I hear from the pro-choice side. Note that this is about abortion-at-will, not about abortion to save a life (when the mother is in an unhealthy pregnancy).
Undervalue
This is simply believing that human lives a mere biological instance and don't have intrinsic value. While it is a rare argument that is openly put forward by pro-choice, in my opinion it is the most consistent and powerful argument they have. And it lies underneath most of their common arguments.

The reason they don't make that argument is that they know it would invalidate all arguments about human rights (including the rights they claim to defend).

When it is put forward though, you would have to go beyond politics and enter the religious/moral world to discuss this. But ultimately, you cannot convince someone to value anything, and if they decide to reject the value of human lives, discussions are likely a lost cause. Only pray, preach, and vote. Always be peaceful.

Dehumanize
Many pro-choicers claim fetuses are either not humans at all, or not humans enough. It is an unfortunate feature of humanity - believing those who do not look like us are not as human as we are.

It can come in the form of acknowledging fetuses as humans but with no rights to exist in the womb, or simply denying that fetuses are humans. Obviously fetuses are biologically humans, so it should be easy to refute arguments that deny that - just point to a biology book. Here are some of the arguments I see often:

*"Fetuses aren't humans. They are just clumps of cells" - Not much to say about this one. If two humans reproduce, their offspring is by definition a human. And all humans are clumps of cells.

*"Fetuses are humans but parasites" - While not many pro-choicers like saying this, it is how the pro-choice ideology treats fetuses. This indicates that because a fetus is living inside its mother

*"Life starts at birth" - Birth doesn't add anything to the fetus' life... it just makes it independent. This goes back to believing only independent humans can be valued and considering other humans as parasites.

[...]

Various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

(submitters note: responding to this meme: image)

(BiblicalChristianity)
This is one of their most effective manipulative arguments because pro-lifers fail to respond properly.

We should all remember that reducing crime isn't the purpose of the law.

Not that what they are saying is true, but that it's irrelevant.

(not_falling_down)

Not that what they are saying is true, but that it's irrelevant.

How is is "irrelevant"?

Even if you remain convinced that abortions should be outlawed, why would you not, in the meantime, push lawmakers to implement policies that are already know to reduce the number of abortions occurring?

(HPlusGuns)
"Give us free stuff so we don't murder our kids." Seems legit.

(FakeElectionMaker)
If you see abortion as murder, whether banning it reduces abortions should not matter, as abortion is wrong enough to be illegal regardless.

(Seeker_Seven)
If banning abortion doesn’t reduce the number of abortions, then what are pro-abortion people whining about right now?

(andisry)
Tbf, pro choicers are upset that the abortions are still happening outside the law in unsafe conditions that endanger the mothers' health. From my observations, even pro choicers who are personally against abortion prefer that it remains legal so that women who inevitably get them aren't endangering their lives trying to diy or go to unregulated illegal facilities

(CatholicAccountant)
To be fair hiring an assassin for a baby shouldn't ever be safe. Change my mind.

(XM_13)
In Texas it only reduced abortions overall by 10% because woman who want one and can travel will do so. (You can legislate it all you want, but there will always be demand for abortion- there has been for all of human history.) The reductions in abortion were mostly among women too poor to travel.

(Seeker_Seven)
10% sounds great, especially if we also get to rightly state in law that murder is illegal. As more states ban abortion, that reduction should increase, too. Eventually, we get a federal ban put in place. As you said, murder will still happen, as it always has - but it should still be illegal.

Various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

RE: My sister has disowned my dad

(Keeflinn)
This is the result of the widespread lying and fear-mongering that women need abortion.

(Only_Chick_Who)
Exactly she went straight to the girl in Ohio who had to go out of state for an abortion. My dad asked if she would ban abortion with exception of rape and mother health and she said it was a womans choice and women mattered more than a fetus.

(thepantsalethia)
Your poor father. Under so much pressure to accept evil. Hope he stands firm and stays strong. We are rooting for him. They want to use bully tactics to force their ideology on him. That’s not a good example of love. Let him know he is loved and respected.

(bpete3pete)
It's very interesting that everyone with a strong pro-abortion position was not aborted.

(BiblicalChristianity)
Morality divides families.

Jesus said he was bringing the sword for this reason.

(Nice_Book6009)
Yep, leftism is a cult

BiblicalChristianity #wingnut reddit.com

If abortion is banned, one generation will complain about it. But the next one will think it's normal and probably question what our generation was thinking... like slavery.

The current generation is just a reflection of what it was raised in. So once it passes, the vitriol will be gone.

The next generation will take responsibility on pregnancy as they will think it is normal. Of course there will always be exceptions and fringe political opinions.

BiblicalChristianity #wingnut reddit.com

Censoring dissent is a very crucial part of propaganda and effectively admitting that they don’t have truth on their side.

* If the internet existed before the US abolished slavery, it would be the same thing. Anyone who opposed slavery would be censored by those who preferred the convenience of legally owning a slave.

* If the Nazis had the internet, it would be the same thing. Anyone who opposed the holocaust would be censored by those who didn't care about the Jews and others they considered sub-human.

If pro-choice had actual good arguments, they wouldn’t need to censor dissent. But now all they do is block and ban.

Various commenters #wingnut reddit.com

(Adventurous_Union_85)

What do you say to people who call it forced birth?

I try to explain to them that no one wants to force them to get pregnant and have a baby, we just don't want them to kill the baby they conceived because of their choice to have sex. But they can't seem to get past the idea that consent to sex is somehow not consent to pregnancy. It's like they have no concept of consequences and personal responsibility.

(DiamondConfident1811)
An elective abortion is a forced birth intended to harm and kill the baby. PL is only for forced births if the woman’s health is in danger so her health can be protected

(scr3wballl)
It's no more a forced birth than it was a forced impregnation.

They let him in willingly and need to live with that choice.

(RoFact)
It is deliberate and narcissistic sophistry of the worst kind. They do this because it rephrases the debate to move from discussing the right to life and the value of human life to that of oppressing others instead. Remember: if you believe human life has value and all have a right to life you therefore as a moral person have a duty to preserve life

(Nulono)
If it were possible to cure diabetes by, say, burning down an orphanage, would it be "forced diabetes" not to repeal arson laws? No, clearly not. There's a difference between forcing something and not allowing the victimization of innocents as a way to avoid it.

(ThousandYearOldLoli)
If you go your entire life without having a single baby I don't care. If you try to kill a baby I care. That's the difference between being for "forced birth" and being against killing babies.

(Dark-Pit-37)
I am not anti-choice, you had a choice when you decided to have sex. And to the rape argument, I say we should have far more lax gun laws so women can defend themselves. Rape is illegal, you would genuinely have an argument in "what about rape" if it was somehow completely legal, but it isn't and you should exercise your right to defend yourself against it.

(Seahawk__2020)
I don't talk with pro-aborts since it makes me suffer deppression and a hate of living in this evil civilization. Makes me think to go on a deserted island and never come back to civilization. When I used to debate they called me hypocrite and woman enslaver and spam me with it so I unsubscribed that atheist site I was debating in. (I'm myself atheist from the age of 8.)

Various Commenters #wingnut reddit.com

(DiamondConfident1811)
I noticed that PC’ers always leave out the life of the fetus in their argumentation. When they are showing the weighted pros and cons they are always trying to leave out the part where they actually kill a living human being.

Until the baby is born, then they supposedly think it’s horrible that the child has to be subjected to this horrible cruel world, and what PC’ers really want to say with those kind of statements is that the fetus should actually be thankful for being killed by their mother.

(Win-Fragrant)
They also never mention the fact that the foetus is actually the child of that woman. I recently debated a PC man whose gf had an abortion and I told him your girl isn’t a potential mother who ended her pregnancy, she’s a mother who killed her unborn child and he was like genetically we were the parents, but not philosophically 💀

(DiamondConfident1811)
There’s a psychological phenomenon that people, who have committed something atrocious, tend to always rationalize the act to themselves so that they are not the bad person in the narrative. And the mind is amazing at this, because if you make yourself the center of the universe, your mind can pretty much rationalize every cruel act in such a way that it’s morally favorable to you.

(Win-Fragrant)
Yes, definitely I knew about that too! It’s crazy the length of absurd arguments that they need to constantly keep coming up with to justify the heinous crimes that they have committed. Because they know deep down once they actually accept what they did and what they ended, know that it was not a parasite, but it was their child, the child who was killed by the only person they were suppose to trust and feel safe with… just the thought of it would drive them into deep guilt.

Nulono #wingnut reddit.com

For all their talk of "choice", pro-aborts love to ignore women's agency in the process.

They'll talk about abortion laws "forcing" women to have back-alley abortions, ignoring that the women in question chose to pursue dangerous abortions.
They say shit like "if an abortion will get you life in prison, you might as well kill your rapist" as if aborting a baby is just an inevitability the woman has no control over.
They call punishments for abortion "punishing women for having sex" as though the woman had no part in the abortion past having sex.
Likewise, they'll claim that the father should also be held responsible for the abortion because he got her pregnant, ignoring that they explicitly want him to have zero say in the matter.

For pro-aborts, abortion is 100% a woman's choice, until the topic turns to responsibility for the aftermath, at which point abortion is just a force of nature that women have no control over.

Various Commenters #wingnut reddit.com

(Melodic_Fondant7253)
I say they're more of misogynists by killing so many female babies.

(mangoorangejuice18)
I would argue that least misogynists presumably still have some misplaced compassion for the other gender. Abortophiles don’t even care if it’s a human or not, they will slaughter them regardless.

There’s a reason why its not common practice to inform the mother of what gender her child was after an abortion, because they would rather not know.

They know the truth will damage them either way.

(Win-Fragrant)
I genuinely don’t understand why they think we wanna punish sex? Have all the sex you want, but you can’t claim that pregnancy and sex are unrelated- and on the next breath say that PLers wanna ban sex because while having sex pregnancy will occur? Like if getting pregnant was not one of the natural results of sex, why does the body literally create a whole new organ just to protect the fetus, and if everything goes well your body will go in labour automatically with or without your consent.

Also it’s crazy that they don’t realize you’d have to be one of the unluckiest people to get pregnant nowadays if you combine BC+condoms+avoid having sex during your fertile window! The chances of you getting pregnant doing these 3 things are extremely low, which is why half of women who seek abortions got those unwanted pregnancies because they didn’t even bother to be on BC.

(anotherlori)
The real misogynists are the PCs who have devalued a woman's existence into that of a sex toy - there for pleasure only, not reproduction. Complete denial of the true nature of womanhood, body & soul.

(RoFact)
“Punish women for having sex”… look at that phrasing and think about it: this prochoicer feels oppressed that they may not be able to kill their unborn child when it inconveniences their unsafe sex lifestyle…

Gas-More #sexist reddit.com

There should be child support during pregnancy for all pregnancy related expenses. I’m all for banning pregnant women from working😂 but not because of child labor laws, because even in your sentence you admit it’s the mother, not the child, working. Just because the child is inside the mother doesn’t mean they are the same person or that every action of the mother is also the action of the child. Saying the child is working because the mother is, is like to saying that the child aborted itself if the mother kills it.

P.S. all your problems can be solved if we have a traditional framework where the man is married to a woman when he is having sex and conceived and the man works outside the home while the woman runs the home. It’s almost as if the “patriarchal” and “oppressive” system that people thought of before 1960 is internally consistent and recognizes the needs of a mother and provides for her rather than some bs system of child support from a ex-boyfriend while the mother just temporarily gets off from her hard job while having a child.

-nWo-- & Spoon_Theif #wingnut reddit.com

Abortion is Healthcare
image

(-nWo--)
Abortion is the only type of "healthcare" where the goal is to kill and dismember the patient.

(Spoon_Theif)
Real love is sacrifice. Some culture teaches that we have to live for the things that bring us the most pleasure. Raising kids doesn't qualify and thus you have abortion. "My body, my choice" silences the rights of someone who cannot defend themselves. I'll pray for this lady.

MTKintsugi #wingnut reddit.com

The left keeps promoting the idea that the only abortions that happen are 100% driven by pregnant women themselves who make that decision for themselves and have no pressure from anyone outside of themselves.

That is not at all accurate.

Significant others, former sexual partners, parents, doctors/healthcare providers, even insurance companies… immense pressure, more often than not, comes from outside of these women who are bullied into believing that bearing a child in less than optimal circumstances is a deal breaker in their ability to be mothers.

Remove these influences from being able to apply the pressure of an abortion when it’s easily accessible, and more children will be born.

It’s not so much that the women themselves are making the loudest noises o n this isssue, it’s the ones who want to be able to say who should and who should not have babies.

Women have always had the power to decide for themselves and will continue to. The ones who are losing are those who would seek to influence her for their own agendas and pretend to support abortion rights for her benefit.

It’s not for her benefit… it’s for theirs.

Various Commenters #wingnut reddit.com

baby_killer.exe has stopped working
image

(DiamondConfident1811)
Intelligent pro-choicer: “A person is defined by the ability to kill a fetus, a fetus does not have the ability to kill a fetus therefore it is not a person”.

(Altered_Beast805)
Abortionist: "A person is defined by their ability to commit atrocities".

Me: "That's just projection".

(Mr_Laszlo_Panaflex)
"A fetus doesn't exist because its not conscious."

-Actual argument someone threw at me today.

(No_Rip_1299)
Neither is a person in a coma…

(HaloNoble)
They have to be joking, like seriously, THEY HAVE TO JOKING, SOMEONE CAN'T BE THAT DELUSIONAL, RIGHT?

(i_sont_)
I got something better. "You are killing potential woman with abortion because of inconvenience, that seems rather misogynistic dont you think?"

(DiamondConfident1811)
The fetus could also be a transgender. So it’s also really transphobic 🐸

(i_sont_)
It could also be gay, so it is also really homophobic 🦁

(ilikeinterrobangs)
Babies are all the different races, it's pretty racist to kill them if you ask me

(TexasDude29)
Nope. They are never flustered. They have a definition at the ready and will die clinging to it

(Effective-Honey-2360)
There's no way to define it without digging yourself a hole.

(TexasDude29)
Apparently not to them. They most commonly say "sentience" or "brain activity." The trouble is that makes a degree of sense

(Effective-Honey-2360)
What you reply with is examples of people with limited brain activity/sentience eg someone in a coma. You wouldn't just kill them, especially if you knew that they would wake up in a few months.

(TexasDude29)
I do all the time. Either it's brushed off or pointed out that we unplug such people all the time

(Effective-Honey-2360)
At a certain point you may find that the person you are talking to is literally pro-murder. Not much to say after that point I admit.

Various Commenters #wingnut reddit.com

When I’m told I need to become “Pro-Choice” in order to “support women”
image

(Windrunner06)
If being pro choice is supporting women then I guess I hate women

(Spunkei)
I support women…and I don’t think encouraging them to kill their own child is support they need.

(LordIstvan)
Ya but our version of supporting women doesn’t fit their narrative and thus we hate women.

(Win-Fragrant)
Or that it’s more empowering for a woman to savagely kill her own offspring than show the world that she can both raise the kid and still work her way to success, or give them up for adoption because that’s the more loving path than killing them.

(PinkBlossomDayDream)
Pro-Choice movement is anti woman.

(FinalSoft1)
If I identify as a women, I'm allowed to be pro life. There for, I beat them at their own rule.

BiblicalChristianity & Duc_de_Magenta #wingnut #fundie reddit.com

(BiblicalChristianity)

This is part of the effort to conflate Christianity and pro-life politics.

1. Frame all bible-following Christianity as oppression

2. Convince society oppressors should be abolished by violent revolutions

3. Consor oppositions

4. ... Eventually justify Christian persecution.

Marxism cycles itself.

(ProlifeIntactivist)
I guess I’m oppressing myself by their logic. I turned to Christianity all on my own and I’ve (sadly) never been to church.

(dietcokehoe)
Welcome home sister! (Assuming based on your avatar lol)

I STRONGLY recommend finding a place of fellowship and worship, especially in times such as these. I have an inkling that the beast has been poked by the overturning and the world will start to become gradually more and more unkind to actual principled Christians who don’t support child sacrifice. It is so much easier to not be of this world when you are surrounded by your brothers and sisters in a community and in communion with the body of Christ. We are not only here for our own salvation but for the salvation of others! Of course I don’t know where you live but if you need help finding a good church, I’m more than happy to help make phone calls/Google searches/etc! You can send me a DM anytime!


(Duc_de_Magenta)
I've noticed how much of the pro-bort argument really does rely on an implicit bias/bigotry against Christianity & often Catholicism in particular.

Almost never goes the opposite way, either. I'm Christian & anti-infanticide, sure, but I absolutely can & do argue the latter w/o invoking the former. I think they cannot b/c they know, fundamentally, if we spoke in plain terms... their position is indefensible. They have to frame is as "these fanatics pushing their faith onto you!" rather than the real question - "which kind of people deserve human rights?"

Anti-abortionist #wingnut #fundie reddit.com

RE: “They’re coming after birth control next” —according to the fear-mongering abortion proponents. If you’re reading this, NO WE ARE NOT.
I seriously am against birth control. Im not catholic im Christian but BC has some serious effects no one talks about and there are no studies done on it even tho its been around for 60 years. Ignorance is bliss i guess. I do not take birth control and i warn women against its effects and how it is an abortifacient. Its not my next move obviously, but when we hold true to our stance that life begins at conception, some birth controls will need to be removed

firenati0n #wingnut reddit.com

Harry potter is an excellent pro-lifer literature.
I always thought women should have control over her body, however, after reading Harry potter, my views changed for the better.

Imagine if Lily potter aborted Harry, who would have stopped the onslaught of voldemort? The child who stood up to voldemort would be no longer there. Voldemort would have committed a magical holocaust against us muggles.

The weasleys had so many kids, they could have easily offed a few of them to stop descending into poverty. However they chose not to and they ended up with some of the most lovable bastards on the series. Could you imagine if ron, fred or george was aborted (Percy dont count lol). Their potential would have gone without a trace in history.

Same thing can be said of Hagrid. He was the product of union between a man and a giant. Yet they did not abort the unholy creation. Why? Because they valued life and potential of that life (however little it may be).

JK Rowling did a fantastic job of creating characters that could have been aborted at birth, however through trials and tribulation they overcame their shortcoming and became heroes. Ms Rowling's work places a strong case for us pro-lifers

BannableSlut #wingnut reddit.com

What's funny is that this assertion of yours undermines the idea that abortion is a strict issue of bodily autonomy.

Now, in real life, anyone who bothered to know is well aware that there were abortions happening to fully "viable and healthy" fetuses in the late second/and early 3rd trimester. Doesn't really matter if it was rare, it should've been universally understood that anyone preforming them should've been in prison for life.

DiamondConfident1811 , wardamnbolts & SwordfishNo4689 #wingnut reddit.com

RE: I got stuck on an elevator with a pro-choicer. They said all the typical things. Clump of cells, my body, my choice, straw man upon straw man.

(DiamondConfident1811)
The womb is like an elevator, the person on it is only meant to get out when they have arrived at their intended floor, not lethally ejected from the elevator when the property owner feels like it🙃

(wardamnbolts)
Yup dehumanize them so it’s okay to kill. Very old strategy.

(SwordfishNo4689)

I got stuck on an elevator with a pro-choicer

Sounds like the plot from a horror movie.

Due_Lion3875 #wingnut reddit.com

RE: I'm an atheist, but I'm glad Roe was overturned

I agree with you, maybe my only tangent would be with “fetal life still experiences pain and suffering”

I think the creature experiencing pain or not is irrelevant, many pro baby killing arguments say a fetus can be aborted before it’s physically able to feel pain, that’d be the same as saying someone who’s unconscious can just be killed because they don’t want to continue providing for them and they’re not experiencing pain anyways.

Beyond inflicting suffering or pain the sanctity of human life should be preserved over anything, everybody has the right to experience life and do whatever they want with it.

SwordfishNo4689 #wingnut reddit.com

RE: I don’t get why people are so passionate about abortions…
We live in a dumb and sex-crazed society without morality.

Everyone wants to have fun, meaning sex, without consequences. Most people believe they need sex like they need to eat, drink or sleep otherwise they die. Only few seem to understand that sex means procreation.

Maybe a lot of PC are on purpose totally blind for reality. They know abortion is evil but don‘t want to admit it, because then they also have to admit promoting genocide. And who wants to be accused of that?

Anti-abortionist & Brace_SK3 #wingnut #fundie reddit.com

RE: I don’t get why people are so passionate about abortions…
(Anti-abortionist)
People are ingrained to die on the hill of abortion because no matter how much they tell you they are areligious abortion is a child sacrifice on the alter of themselves. It is the high sacrament of the secular progressive movement so when you say that you are taking it away they are so offended that you are taking away their religion. Most people are not self aware enough to notice this but as we are most God fearing people founded in reality that comes from the truth of the Bible it is clear for us to see that ultimately abortion is a child sacrifice to another god. The only people who really recognize this is the church of satan who say that abortion is a part of their religious traditions. People who defend abortion defend it at the cost of their soul

(Brace_SK3)
I absolutely agree it’s definitely child sacrifice! Looking at history we have obvious examples of human sacrifices especially child sacrifices being done by different religions.

Someone once said that Satan is really not that original because he always has the same formula but he packages it just differently enough to make it look original. So yes maybe nowadays child sacrifices might not literally look like a child being sliced open on an alter to be dedicated to some “god” but it’s still the same because abortion is the killing of children for your own desire making the religion in question essentially about self-worship.

SwordfishNo4689 #homophobia reddit.com

They are human so their human rights will not be taken away.

Gay people can do whatever they want, but it gets on my nerves when they demand to be married (maybe even in church, please leave the church out of it) and teach kids at school that it‘s normal and okay to be gay, lesbian or trans or whatever. Leave the kids out of it.

These people always existed and they deserve respect like everybody else. But they should’t call their union marriage, and especially leave the catholic church in peace, and they should’t force everybody to accept their lifestyle.

By the way, what they do in private I don‘t care.

Aggravating-peach1 #wingnut reddit.com

The only one dismantling the Constitution is the leftist scumbag Communists like you who have taken over the country without firing a single shot because the Republicans have faltered.....the only thing that stands between you cramming your Godless Careless self destructive ways down all of our throats is people like me and others..... Abortion ban is going to go nationwide the call for it from the right grows every day sooner then later it will happen and when we win the gov next year and this year in November you will be rolled over like a friggin freight train and we will get it done ...

So if I shouldn't shove my godless beliefs all of your throats why is it okay for you to shove yours down mine??

Also abortion was legally protected and you were fine. Nobody forced you to get an abortion, nobody stole your baby. You got to make the decision to have it. It literally didn't affect you at all did it?

That's called personal freedom. It's currently being repealed

Slavery was also legally protected too and look what happened with that? Not everything that was ever legally protected was right....you have what they call a legal bias...You think just because it's legal it's right....just because Florida has a stand your ground law and you can literally shoot someone in the face you think is threatening your life weather they show you a gun or not is it right? Fuck no it can be manipulated so that you can kill and that law needs a little work.... idk if it's updated or not since the Zimmermann case but at one point that's how it was and that's how that bastard got away with it the first time.....was it right? No but was it legal at the time yes.....

DabblingDonkey #wingnut reddit.com

You’re entitled to your beliefs, as I am to mine. I don’t believe a fetus is a life; it’s a potential life.

Yes, in the same way that slave owners and the Third Reich chose to define personhood to justify their goals, you are doing the same.

I do believe that school children are actual living, breathing humans and as such shouldn’t be randomly shot up in schools. If you don’t like abortion, just ignore it like you ignore school shootings. It’s the price to pay to keep your guns, right?

We are bound by constitutional laws which clearly outline how the laws operate surrounding this issue.

blackie___chan & freyasunshine #wingnut reddit.com

(blackie___chan)
Then let's call it a fetus for more cognitive dissonance...
image

spoiler
Man: "Coffee, you are my only friend"
Coffee: "I want to murder children without seeing the look on their face when I do it"
Man: "Hmm, to dark"
*puts milk into coffee*
Coffee: "I want unfettered abortion up to 40 weeks or maybe right after"
Man: "Perfect"

(freyasunshine)
I like how they call it a fetus as if that makes it not killing an innocent life

It's dehumanization

American_Patriarch & closeurlegz #sexist reddit.com

(American_Patriarch)
Shower thought: Now that Roe V Wade has been overturned, women now have as much day in becoming a mother as men do in being a father
Talk about equality, that may explain why women are so angry. “To those who are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression”

(closeurlegz)
W*men are all about equality unless it comes to sex.

Thadlust #wingnut reddit.com

RE: Reasons for abortion
(Note by submitter: in response to a meme showing a piechart of “Reasons why women have abortions” whith each portion stated as “Nobody’s buisness”)
No wait I got it! 65% infanticidal bloodlust 20% infanticidal bloodlust 10% infanticidal bloodlust 5% infanticidal bloodlust

TheTruePoopBANDIT #wingnut reddit.com

RE: How it feels to be against baby murder on reddit
If you think about it, the n*zis basically aborted millions of marginalized peoples, so the pro-choicers are literally modern day fascists and there’s no way to refute that
[…]
Hitler killed because he was a socialist. It’s in the word nazi, it means “national socialist”. Same with everyone like Marx, Stalin, Mao, etc. who all killed millions
[…]
And whores are still the problem today with Roe V Wade

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