www.christiandiscussionforums.org

Scarlets79 #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Natural selection- cruel or not?

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Is natural selection cruel?

Evos seem to be spinning it that natural selection's losers are those who are selfish and "immoral". So serves them right, huh? So natural selection is not really cruel, it's moral and just. The selfish competitive bad guys lose out, whilst the commie good guys survive and prosper.

They fail to cite other examples of the losers of natural selection. For some reason they don't want to give people the whole truth. Such as what goes on when there's limited resources.

The commies are giving an acceptable spin on evolution theory, making it seem moral and just. They don't talk about the competition, the disabled and weak losing out etc.

Am is right, the evos are commie spin doctors.

lightwave #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

I freely admit that I spend some time dropping bombs and oblique artifacts just to get the conversation moving, because it's too dry, down, and out otherwise

it's practically impossible to get an evo-monger to admit their true agenda - but it almost always comes out in the end

because the debate isn't about science -- it's about the clash of two worldviews that interpret evidence differently, from different presuppositional frameworks

evo-mongers have long since learned that the 'attack' is on the framework - if doubt can be cast on the framework, the evidence will magically crystallize and create a new atheist

the converse is not true - tearing down the presuppositional framework of evolution only evokes emotional hostility - and it cannot produce conversion - only God can do that

so why are we here? It should be evident that we are here to dialog with people such that when we interact with our brothers - not other atheists - we can fortify their faith against the false atheistic arguments, so they do not stumble or become discouraged

but conversion is not the goal of "apology" and never has been

scarlets79 & Am #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

scarlets79:
so hitler didn't enforce social darwinism by throwing jews and others into gas chambers, believeing the aryan race were the most evolved fittest race to emerge from survival of the fittest world war?
and eugenics has nothing to do with evolution ideas?

Am:
They have everything to do with each other. Darwinists can only cover it up in order to keep their sanity and believe in evolution at the same time.

scarlets79 #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Am, you know they'll just deny and make the fallacious arguments that there's no connection with hitler then tell us how he was a Christian etc. it's getting dull now, we're dealing with people who deny real history and write their own so they can forward their godless agenda

lightwave #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

ElectricSkeptic:
Evolution is neither an ideology, a worldview, or a belief system. It's a scientific theory.
It's excellent science and it's not philosophy at all.


lightwave:
You are utterly and completely wrong about all of the above

Evolution is a belief system and the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind

it has adherents and evangelists, persecutes its heretics, excommunicates its apostates, shouts down its nay-sayers and demands loyalty and exclusivity among its faithful

Supersport #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Atheists live to kill people...especially babies, old people and anyone who disagrees with their politics of hate. If people don't hate what they hate, atheists just kill them. And if atheists don't want people around -- such as developing fetuses or sick people, it's ok to just snuff 'em out and throw 'em away like trash.

Robert Byers #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Yes what are called dinosaurs did exist as bones reveal.
They were a part of the unclean dominance that ruled the preflood world as hinted at by Genesis.
i don't know if they should be called lizards at all as these reptile/mammal terms I find incomplete in classifying creatures.
Indeed its possible that dinos are just regular creatures with a few twists.
I know marsupials and placentals types are the same kinds as they look and marsupialism is a minor adaption to a area or some need.
So perhaps dinos are also just regular animals with some adaption.
Triceratops could be in the rhino kind and I know they say there were dinos very much like dogs. Of coarse the famous reptile-mammalish creatures even evolution talks about.
Don't premise animals on manmade classification models.

Jimmy Sloan #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

[/quote=HRG]Since theologians are free to create their own criteria of validity, that's not a big surprise. They in effect act as their own umpires.

So says the atheist who lives in a world ultimately governed by chance processes, who redefines chance so that it means something other than chance, and who must admit that the principles of logic are conventions, though uses them to bet his soul -- which doesn't really exist -- that God does not exist, and who acts as if these conventional principles are themselves rational and who also despises with moral indigination, intellectual dishonesty, though both "intellectual" and "dishonesty" are mere conventions and personal preferences from which you express nothing more than a bunch of chemical reactions that have over millions of years evolved to be what they are whether what they are is rational or not, accurate or not, or true or not.

And you suppose that the apologist isn't rational? Rational in your worldview is a bunch of chemical reactions that you bet against all odds just so happens to be truth. No man in his right mind would bet on that unless they had an axe to grind with God. It appears that only atheists fit that bill.

Carico #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

God won't allow himself to be mocked forever

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I realize that atheists think think they should be able to; deny God, deny that Jesus suffered and died on the cross to save you from death, mock Jesus (which is evident on all atheist forums, especially those without rules against it), get away with sin or deny that sin exists, think they are qualified to judge God but can't admit they themselves are guilty of sin, curse their fellow man, eat food that could have been given to the hungry, taken money that could have been given to the poor, envy their neighbor's houses, cars, intelligence, lie to themselves and others, call God evil, desecrate His creation and/or deny he created it, call the authors of the bible liars or deluded, break God's laws, desecrate the way God created the sexual union between a man and a woman, and not be held accountable.

Well sorry guys, but God gives all of us 365 days times the number of years we live to simply apologize and accept his unconditional forgiveness even though none of us deserve it ( which no earthly judge would even do). So he cannot hold us accountable until we die. And since God will not allow himself to be mocked forever, or he would be a wimp and not to be respected, he has a cut-off point which is your own death. After that you have no more chances. So anyone foolish enough to throw away a free pardon for breaking God's laws, deserves what he gets.

So sorry, guys, we all gotta grow up sometime and accept the consequences for our actions. Better now then after it's too late because none of us gets off this earth scott-free. Sorry.

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Scarlets79 #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

God's creation: ready to go

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God created things ready to go.
Adam and Eve were not created as babies but were adults. Question to theo evos- were Adam and Eve ever babies? Another question is how old was Adam and Even when they were created?

They were put on an earth ready to sustain them.
God didn't waste billions of years experimenting to get it right. He made it ready to be inhabited by us from day 6. All in place for us.

Scarlets79 #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Atheist evolutionists are anti-knowledge

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Atheist evolutionists like to label those who believe in creation and reject ToE as being anti-science.

But there is something greater than science. It is called knowledge. Knowledge includes more than just science.

Knowledge can be attained in the natural and the supernatural. Supernatural simply means beyond the natural, just as supersonic is beyond the speed of sound. Atheist evos such as Dawkins want to restrict science to the natural. But this excludes any knowledge available from the supernatural.

Therefore, the atheist evos want to limit knowledge to the natural and exclude knowledge from the supernatural.

They are therefore anti-knowledge. Narrow minded.

antiaging #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

I am an abductee. I was abducted several times before I got saved, and several times after I got saved.
Before I got saved it was horrifying and scary. After I got saved, it was sort of like fun.
I believe ufo aliens are God's angels. Devils don't have flying aircraft in the bible. God's angels do have them, in the bible. Devils don't have physical bodies in the bible. God's angels do have physical bodies and supernatural powers, in the bible.

Schmit #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Democrats are filthy communists to me, they are for racists, abortionists, for taxing folks and are against God and the Bible and think homosexualism is normal and soon will be backing Pedophiles.

Barak HUSSEIN Osama Obama is a perfect case, a left wing pretend Christian who is actually a Muslim and likely to declare such after he gets in and it looks like he will since the Republican candidate is against his won party as much as the otherside and know one really likes him, and conservatives are likely not to even vote for him as much as against Barak and that will likely mean he will get inand we get a ignorant man who has no experience running anything, but his lying mouth.

coadie #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Evocentrism.

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The universe was discovered and found it did not appear to rotate around the earth. Geocentrism.

Darwinism was discovered and recent claims is it explains all the sciences at the least and now they added history. Their History trumps all written accounts, the bible and the rest. There seems to be a lot of howling about Behe who tells us the darwinian Imams are outside the loop and biochemistry is a puzzle external to Darwinism. The Darwinian Imams attack the infidels like myself and ss who present science that denies their centrist movement.

Darwinism raises more questions than it answers. If you ask the wrong question, you willl be expelled.

A recent surge on this board is their taking the battle out in the streets. It seems evocentrism is under the biologists wanting authority to fire in other departments like Guermo execution was handled. This is not friendly fire folks. It is survival of the fittest and Evocentrists want opposition removed by their "natural selection"

Robert Byers #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

First Raven might not be our raven. Dove likewise. These are words being used for some kind of animals but who do they really mean.
Kinds would of been very few. For example I suspect bears and dogs are the same kind and more then this. Perhaps elephants and tapirs are the same kind. Certainly marsupials are the same kind as their counterpoints in placentals.
Perhaps triceritops dinos are just rhinos.
the classification of the last few hundred years has been incompetent.
First we nmeed to settle the actual divisions of the living creatures and fossil ones before figuring out what was on the ark.

Carico #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Sorry, but look on the web and see that there is confusion in today's society about whether the sun rotates around the earth as well. After all, motion is relative to stationary objects. But if both objects are moving, especially if we are living on a moving or rotating object, then it's difficult to determine if the sun is moving or not.

Carico Strikes Again! #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Sorry but truth never changes.

Sorry, but viruses don't mate and breed together. So flu vaccines aren't based on transferring genes via copulation as animals and humans breed offspring. so it's not evolution that leads scientists to invent vaccines. It's understanding how viruses react to outside stimuli.

Carico #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

One can say we cam from giant elephants. And you can't prove we didn't because no one knows who the "common ancestor" is. After all, evolutionists claim we came from non-human apes, so by their reasoning, we could come from any animal. But that's because they don't understand why a non-human can't give birth to a human. You guys are so funny

Carico #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Since you have no valid arguments to any of the discussions, all you can do is try to find something that you can criticize me for. And you've zeroed in on dinosaurs, planets and stars because you believe everything scientists say just like a robot. So I guess you'll have to find out when you die that the difference between planets and stars is so inconsequential and minute, it's not even worth arguing about.

coadie` #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Is Darwinism your Golden calf?

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Is Darwinism your Golden calf?

When Moses the Spiritual leader went up the hill and spoke with God, Aaron followed the wishes of the people and devoted a Golden calf. Moses was a strong man of God and Aaron was not. I see a pattern of Evoas being atheists or very close to it. None of the Evoas exhibit a devoted man of God. a strong and educated Shepherd. The Golden calf is rebellion and folowing the imaginations of the laeity.
We see no theio evoas defend God. They attack people that respect God and follow the Word.
The Golden calf is the first expression of departure from monotheism. They did not reject Yahweh. They added to The almighty.

The other part is so incredibly obcvious. It was pure materialsim. They worshipped things. Evoas get hysterical in being drawn into conversations away from materialism/naturalism.

Do you want me to name names of who would not be able to cope with Darwinism removed from their speech, thots and life / lifestyle?
Do you defend God or naturalism?

I love the LORD and will not either worship images nor worship God in a method that is displeasing. I would rather dance in church than in any bar.

supersport #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

[When asked what would prove evolution to him]

interesting question....I don't know about scarlets but if I came across proof of evolution from monkeys I'd probably just go ahead and start a life of crime or engage in something real risky and exciting. If i was just an evolved ape, made in the image of a bug-picker, nothing would really matter.

Carico #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Debating tactics of evolutionists
Christian: So where did humans come from?
Evolutionist: You're a moron
Christian: Do you know where humans came from?
Evolutionist: Of course we do!
Christian: So please tell us
Evolutionist: I don't have to
Christian: So how can we understand your theory if you don't explain it to us?
Evolutionist: We have
Christian: Please refresh my memory
Evolutionist: What memory?
Christian: All I'm asking you is to tell us where humans came from
Evolutionist: Humans are apes
Christian: So that means that humans came from humans. Is that correct?
Evolutionist: No you dummy
Christian: Why not?
Evolutionist: Because evolution doesn't say that. It says we came from non-human apes
Christian: So how do you know that when you don't know who the common ancestor is?
Evolutionist: We don't have to know who the common ancestor is to know where humans came from.
Christian: Then you're telling me that one species can breed another. Is that correct?
Evolutionist: No, you ignorant moron.
Christian: So if one species can't breed another, then how can humans have come from a species other than ourselves?
Evolutionist: Are you 5?
Christians, I ask you again; can one species breed another?
Evolutionist: Yes
Christian: You just said that it couldn't
evolutionist: You don't understand the theory of evolution.

Needless to say, it's one evasion after another. Then they chastize Christians for not understanding them. But we can take heart that evolutionists don't understand their theory either since they avoid answering questions and if they ever do answer questions, they contradict their last statements and reality as well.

So evolution has been proven to be a lie since evolutionists themselves make opposing statements about their theory. And of course they have yet to realize that denying they make opposing statements doesn't make their theory any truer than personal attacks do. it only adds to their growing list of contradictions.

Shelli #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Why Would Any Sane Man Want Polygamy?
For a man to take on more than one woman, either as a wife or as a secret encounter, escapes me.

One woman is enough for any man to deal with considering all of the psychotic "needs" every woman comes up with. Just think about how every woman does not even know what she wants in life, because they always are changing their minds about it. They change with the social climate, fashion trends, whether or not the feminists are screaming about something, whether or not Oprah is babbling about anything that week, with the advertising being so well aimed at them for products and services, with whatever anyone is telling them they "deserve" or are "worth," and with whatever their personal hormones are doing.

coadie #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Tough economies effect on evolution careers.

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A while back I went to career builder to check out demand for evolutionists. They of course claim they are the matriarch of all natural science. i am sure with company profits down, they can always use a spark of new contribution to the bottom line.

I speak with some Human resource contacts and for some reason they never need evolutioniststs. There is no such job title in corporate jungle.

There will be some need for apes around halloween. Where can distressed evolutiionuists work?

Is there anything out there other than some few teaching jobs?

Scarlets79 #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Evolution, a phase

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Evolution seems to be a phase that people, once they get into the real world, grow out of. They do immoral things at university and justify it to themselves by saying "well, I'm just an ape really". Hiding from the Christians, who might remind them otherwise.
To an extent I used to be like this at uni. Doing my own thing, not going to Church only when at home for Christmas.
Looking back I realise how silly I was. Molecule-to-man is a false doctrine that is not supported at all by credible evidence. No evidence from non-life to life without God. And living like you have apes in your ancestry is very selfish, very very selfish. These secular left students claim to care for others but spend much of their time in bars and in and out of each other's bedrooms. Little regard for others.
For many, evolution is just part of a phase, something people have to go through before they grow up.

antiaging #conspiracy christiandiscussionforums.org

Strong reason to suspect that two way cameras and microphones are in the Television sets. They can look into and listen into your house whenever the Television is plugged in.
There was a time in my life when I saw evidence of this in my personal life. It was really like people on live television were like responding to things I said and did. I took note of it.
One day I was sitting at a Mc Donalds restaurant and this guy sat near me. He said, those people on the TV can really see you. I did not know that. He said he wanted to go and live out in the woods somewhere and get away from the city. I told him that there was a time when I thought that the people on the TV could see me too, but I thought it was a trick of the devil to deceive me and it was not really so.
After thinking about this and based on what I have seen personally, I must conclude that the television sets have hidden cameras and audio equipment in them and people can look and listen into your house through the televisions sets.
So unplug the television when you are not watching it.

Diane S., CARM Forums Administrator #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

[In regard to a post quoting a 'FSTDT.com' posting from CARM]

do you often quote Atheist lies in order to attack other Christians? Are you aware that those "other" websites send trolls here, it is documented on their forums and websites where they actually boast of pretending to be a Christian and arguing with themselves as one poster, two accounts. They pretend they are Christians, say outrageous, ridiculous things and THEN pull the quotes to another forum claiming that it was written by Christians.

I suggest that you stop mocking God and Christians on this forum. You are in this thread suggesting that God Almighty may have created other life on other planets and then you mock the idea that He could create the universe in 6 days? If He is Almighty God, then He could create the Universe in an instant. As you mock the people believing in a 6 day creation, remember you are mocking all of the OT Jews and saints............

By the way, do you deny that Jesus turned water into aged Wine? Tell us, how did He do so, when good wine must be aged for a long time? Does He or does He not also control time as Master over His creation? Are you telling us, that you claim to believe in the Creator, one that gave us a Virgin birth, Ine that could walk on water, but He could not create the heavens and earth in six days? How many other limits do you put on Almighty God?

Supersport #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

My first Hitler thread

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Ok so it seems to be a form of entertainment for some Christians to point out that darwinism and Hitler's behavior (killing) goes hand-in-hand. I usually stay out of those types of arguments because I already have enough enemies as it is. But my honest opinion about it is that atheism -- which ToE is the offspring of -- offers absolutely nothing in the way of a moral reason not to engage in the killings and other atrocities that Hilter and other atheists (such as abortionists) engage in. Of course this is not to say that people of faith are perfect, but at least Christians have a moral foundation of what's right and wrong.

But what gets me is the tenacity that evos will distance themselves from Hitler and deny that (at least in part) he used darwinism as justification for the murders he committed. But seriously, what's the big deal?...why be ashamed of it? Hitler may have killed millions of people and done all sorts of torcher on thousands or millions of others -- but what's wrong with that?...under ToE, the world was built on survival of the fittest....so just because someone happened to come along who enjoyed killing people for his own pleasure and/or power should not be looked down upon by evos....just as a butterfly who flutters around in the garden shouldn't be looked down upon. They're just different animals ----- one isn't better or worse than the other because each was just an accidental product of evolution. How can we expect someone or something to act moral and "right" when they are nothing but an accident and also a prisoner of the genes they were dealt in life? We certainly don't look down on lions for killing zebras...why should evos be afraid of being associated with Hitler, who killed the Jews? What's the difference? Why try to act all moral on these boards when there is nothing inherently immoral about killing? Heck, your whole theory is built on the construction of life via death -- you evos are obsessed with it....so why not embrace it openly and in public?

supersport #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

[Supersport is trying to claim that Richard Dawkins is as unreliable as oral tradition of 'the ancients', the whole back and forth is full of this non-sense.]

...we have no way of confirming what Richard Dawkins has "observed." There are no pictures, videos, procedures, data sets....or anything else. Prove me wrong.

coadie #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Darwinism is idolatry and sorcery. Some sxzeem to think dabbling in it in moderation is OK.

When we see the evil and vile men involved in the evolution movement, Good Christians stay away from it.

the counsel of 1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Casey Powell #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

I'm sorry, but the producers at Sesame street hardly count as Scientists, Lark. Find a monkey that can actually talk to me in English, then I"ll be impressed with Evolution's theory. Surely monkeys would have adapted to those selective advantages by now if Evolution were true, right? I can teach my dog through repetition to fetch a ball, but dog gone it...he still can't do Calculus.

Scarlets79 #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

I'd like to pick up where sport left off a few weeks ago with regards to miracles.

I believe God created as described in Genesis. That is one big supernatural miraculous event.

Evolutionists however must believe in a series of miracles with no supernatural cause. Billions and billions of flukes giving us politicians and penguins on planet earth 14 bn years later.

I believe in one miraculous creation over a 6-day period. Evolutionists believe in billions and billions of miracles over billions of years with no intelligence allowed.

Supersport #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

[I know this is a bit of an oldie but Sport has been busily defending it on CARM so...]

The evolution of fruits and vegetables

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I would like to know how the story goes with the evolution of fruits and vegetables. With animals, evolutionists like to say that a worm, for instance, could turn into a centipede or millipede simply by the addition of some new legs. Humans happen to be chimps with larger brains and opposable thumbs. () So evolutionists like to look at different parts and try to figure out how they came about or how they got modified to lead from one creature to the next.

But what about fruits and vegetables? How would a plumb or a grape, for example, evolve into an orange or a grapefruit? You wouldn't be able to do that by changing out small parts -- an orange is pretty much an orange through and through. And what type of mutation would turn one type of fruit into another? I realize certain berries can be selectively manipulated to spin off new varieties. Same with tomatoes. But berries are still berries...and tomatoes are still tomatoes.

How would natural selection work with plants? How would a population of lemon trees (which obviously all came from lemon seeds), for example, grow trees that produced fruit that was not quite a lemon? Isn't a lemon a lemon? And wouldn't only lemons come from lemon trees?

coadie #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

[I never attacked you I am questioning your actions. If you believe that's an attack then I feel sorry for you. You should be old enough to know better.

You didn't provide a link {to the site that said a human footprint was found that's older than when humans first evolved} so there's no credibility in your post.]

Darwin never posted links.

Am #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

The same mindset required to follow a Hitler is required to buy into evolutionism. Evolutionism is the political activism of promoting evolution and fighting creationism.

What is required to follow a Hitler is what is required to follow the evolutionism: practically all have the same mindset, and the conscensus of their fellow evolutionists rules. They follow leaders easily, and agree to dogma even if it is false and unscientific, or downright harmful.

Trinidad and Tobago #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Amen Carico...there is no reasoning with people who refuse to accept His Truth. I've seen many angry atheists in my time..most of them have admitted to experimentation with perversions like drug abuse homosexuality witchcraft and trying to dye their skin..

You can offer them the Truth and they will deny it, they want to remain willfully ignorant they want to run from Him. Remember...they have made the jump from believing a God-->no god...on top of believing fairy tails and pseudoscientific theories..

History has shown the true danger of being absent of God..the nazis were the greatest atheistic threat modern society has ever faced. We saw what darwinism was capable of..but ultimately good will prevail. They can run and deny, but only they wil have to answer to their chosen savior...Satan...

Carico #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

{Tatanka_Maza says: STARS PRODUCE LIGHT. PLANETS REFLECT LIGHT}

How do you know? Afterall, pluto isn't considered a planet any more. So what defines a planet as opposed to a star? So sorry, until we visit stars, scientists no more know what they're made of than they know how many stars there are in the universe. All we know is that the light from all of them is the same.

awediot #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

According to the Bible, homosexuality is worse than pedophilia (as long as I marry the kid), which is no sin... If I just rape the kid, it's mere fornication, as is gay sex...

Is the common sense we use to declare marrying a twelve year old to be a sin, a sin in itself?

rlhuckle #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Atheist: Aha! Now we're getting somewhere: What standard do you have of measuring what is truth and what isn't?

RLHuckle: Divine revelation.

Atheist: Is that all you've got? The voices in your head?

RLHuckle: And you don't?

Atheist: I don't have voices in my head (and I wouldn't boast about it if I did).

RLHuckle: Well Scripture says the unbeliever has ears but cannot hear; I love it when Scripture is verified by experience.

rlhuckle #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

REAL humans are the elect and life is a humanization process (coming to a knowledge of the truth), the rest are mere shadow (they are already de-humanized) and live an illusion. People will understand WHO the reprobate actually are--wicked, evil, and self-deceiving individuals (in spirit) that only care for themselves and hate their Creator (and those who belong to the Creator--the source of all that is good) with an eternal animosity. To the elect, every reprobate is merely another Nero,Hitler,Stalin etc..

(contributors note: elect means Christians and reprobate are all non-Christians)

Am #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

Evolutionism/Communism/Totalitarianism
Obervations:

1) Evolution may be true, but it is more often than not pushed by liberal communists, and has perhaps since its birth been the product and tool for political agendas.

2) Evolutionists tend to be atheist, which is not in of itself all bad. The bad part is that some atheists are atheists because of evil. Meaning, they actually despise the good, noble things that God and spirituality represent.

clh1217 #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

[On a discussion about the difference between the protestant version and Catholic version of the 10 commandments]

The Catholic religion has created its own loophole so you can perform your idolotry on Mary, Pedro...etc.

However, now that we have more bibles than rolls of toilet paper on this planet, ....it can't be kept a secret and the Catholic mindcontrol has been exposed...

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